Quote from: die Sage on November 07, 2008, 12:49:22 PMQuote from: did on November 06, 2008, 01:05:06 PMThere is this inherent insecurity about the consequences of your actions (related to the absurdity of the world), and to the fact that, in experiencing your freedom, you also realize that you will be fully responsible for these consequences; there is no thing in you (your genes, for instance) that acts and that you can "blame" if something goes wrong. Of course, most of us only have short and shallow encounters with this kind of dread, as not every choice is perceived as having dreadful possible consequences (and, it can be claimed, our lives would be unbearable if every choice facilitated dread), but that doesn't change the fact that freedom remains a condition of every action.Sartre calls it "bad faith" when you deny the concept of free will by lying to yourself about your self and freedom. This can take many forms, from convincing yourself that some form of determinism is true, to a sort of "mimicry" where you act as "you should." How "one" should act is often determined by an image one has of how one such as oneself (say, a bank manager) acts. This image usually corresponds to some sort of social norm. This does not mean that all acting in accordance with social norms is bad faith: The main point is the attitude you takes to your own freedom, and the extent to which you act in accordance with this freedom. A sign of bad faith can be something like the denial of responsibility for something you have done on the grounds that you just did "as one does" or that your genes determined you to do as you did. Lying to yourself might appear impossible or contradictory. Sartre denies the subconscious the power to do this, and he claims that the person who is lying to himself has to be aware that he is lying - that he isn't determined, or this "thing" he makes himself out to be.The existentialist concept of freedom is often misunderstood as a sort of liberum arbitrium where almost anything is possible and where values are inconsequential to choice and action. This interpretation of the concept is often related to the insistence on the absurdity of the world and that there are no relevant or absolutely "good" or "bad" values. However, that there are no values to be found in the world in-itself doesn't mean that there are no values: each of us usually already has his values before a consideration of their validity is carried through, and it is, after all, upon these values we act.For one, Sartre was no hippie, but a serious, even austere thinker, with the soul of a moralist. He maintained that being human means being free. The freedom to make yourself, and your acting on this freedom, are what you are. In his more hyperbolic moments, Sartre goes so far as to say that a human being is freedom. Nothing left to lose? If existence precedes essence, we're not only free to create ourselves; we're also free of any inherent, built-in baggage. Because we're nothing, nothing is compelling or prejudicing our choices or our actions. Any choice is possible. That kind of freedom can be overwhelming, and Sartre doesn't think it's anything to take lightly. Condemned To Be Free (And Responsible), Whether You Like It Or Not. And Sartre calls this an optimistic philosophy? Well, yes, he does. But it's always an optimism about where we can go from where we start. This discussion deals with the human condition -- the starting place, which he admits can look pretty bleak at times. The sense in which that starting place (freedom) is something we're "condemned" to basically has the following two aspects: the first is the inescapability of that freedom. You're free in life to make any choices, but whether you'll be free isn't one of them. It's an inescapable part of your human condition, like it or not. The second aspect is the weight of freedom. You experience your freedom as a great burden because it's a tremendous responsibility. If your freedom is inescapable, so is your responsibility. Finally, Free Choice Creates Value And Meaning. If God doesn't exist, no eternal, objective measure of value exists, and nothing has any inherent meaning. This doesn't mean, however, that life has no meaning, or value at all. It's just that every meaning and value is a human meaning or a human value. And because human beings have no human nature and no inherent values or meaning, we're constantly creating those human meanings and values. You see, Sartre, was not some kind of naturalist who equates human beings with animals or sees a human being as minuscule speck of dust before the grandeur of the universe. The universe is filled with objects that are conscious of nothing, feel nothing, choose nothing, and value nothing. The Milky Way, for all its vastness, is as dumb and senseless as a rock. Only human beings make choices and make themselves into something. Although it's true that we start as nothing, we have the power to make something of ourselves and the freedom to determine what that will be. Freedom is the source of human dignity.I tend to think Sartre has described the idea that we are terribly free to make our choices in such a way that ironically no one would accept it...
Quote from: did on November 06, 2008, 01:05:06 PMThere is this inherent insecurity about the consequences of your actions (related to the absurdity of the world), and to the fact that, in experiencing your freedom, you also realize that you will be fully responsible for these consequences; there is no thing in you (your genes, for instance) that acts and that you can "blame" if something goes wrong. Of course, most of us only have short and shallow encounters with this kind of dread, as not every choice is perceived as having dreadful possible consequences (and, it can be claimed, our lives would be unbearable if every choice facilitated dread), but that doesn't change the fact that freedom remains a condition of every action.Sartre calls it "bad faith" when you deny the concept of free will by lying to yourself about your self and freedom. This can take many forms, from convincing yourself that some form of determinism is true, to a sort of "mimicry" where you act as "you should." How "one" should act is often determined by an image one has of how one such as oneself (say, a bank manager) acts. This image usually corresponds to some sort of social norm. This does not mean that all acting in accordance with social norms is bad faith: The main point is the attitude you takes to your own freedom, and the extent to which you act in accordance with this freedom. A sign of bad faith can be something like the denial of responsibility for something you have done on the grounds that you just did "as one does" or that your genes determined you to do as you did. Lying to yourself might appear impossible or contradictory. Sartre denies the subconscious the power to do this, and he claims that the person who is lying to himself has to be aware that he is lying - that he isn't determined, or this "thing" he makes himself out to be.The existentialist concept of freedom is often misunderstood as a sort of liberum arbitrium where almost anything is possible and where values are inconsequential to choice and action. This interpretation of the concept is often related to the insistence on the absurdity of the world and that there are no relevant or absolutely "good" or "bad" values. However, that there are no values to be found in the world in-itself doesn't mean that there are no values: each of us usually already has his values before a consideration of their validity is carried through, and it is, after all, upon these values we act.For one, Sartre was no hippie, but a serious, even austere thinker, with the soul of a moralist. He maintained that being human means being free. The freedom to make yourself, and your acting on this freedom, are what you are. In his more hyperbolic moments, Sartre goes so far as to say that a human being is freedom. Nothing left to lose? If existence precedes essence, we're not only free to create ourselves; we're also free of any inherent, built-in baggage. Because we're nothing, nothing is compelling or prejudicing our choices or our actions. Any choice is possible. That kind of freedom can be overwhelming, and Sartre doesn't think it's anything to take lightly. Condemned To Be Free (And Responsible), Whether You Like It Or Not. And Sartre calls this an optimistic philosophy? Well, yes, he does. But it's always an optimism about where we can go from where we start. This discussion deals with the human condition -- the starting place, which he admits can look pretty bleak at times. The sense in which that starting place (freedom) is something we're "condemned" to basically has the following two aspects: the first is the inescapability of that freedom. You're free in life to make any choices, but whether you'll be free isn't one of them. It's an inescapable part of your human condition, like it or not. The second aspect is the weight of freedom. You experience your freedom as a great burden because it's a tremendous responsibility. If your freedom is inescapable, so is your responsibility. Finally, Free Choice Creates Value And Meaning. If God doesn't exist, no eternal, objective measure of value exists, and nothing has any inherent meaning. This doesn't mean, however, that life has no meaning, or value at all. It's just that every meaning and value is a human meaning or a human value. And because human beings have no human nature and no inherent values or meaning, we're constantly creating those human meanings and values. You see, Sartre, was not some kind of naturalist who equates human beings with animals or sees a human being as minuscule speck of dust before the grandeur of the universe. The universe is filled with objects that are conscious of nothing, feel nothing, choose nothing, and value nothing. The Milky Way, for all its vastness, is as dumb and senseless as a rock. Only human beings make choices and make themselves into something. Although it's true that we start as nothing, we have the power to make something of ourselves and the freedom to determine what that will be. Freedom is the source of human dignity.
There is this inherent insecurity about the consequences of your actions (related to the absurdity of the world), and to the fact that, in experiencing your freedom, you also realize that you will be fully responsible for these consequences; there is no thing in you (your genes, for instance) that acts and that you can "blame" if something goes wrong. Of course, most of us only have short and shallow encounters with this kind of dread, as not every choice is perceived as having dreadful possible consequences (and, it can be claimed, our lives would be unbearable if every choice facilitated dread), but that doesn't change the fact that freedom remains a condition of every action.Sartre calls it "bad faith" when you deny the concept of free will by lying to yourself about your self and freedom. This can take many forms, from convincing yourself that some form of determinism is true, to a sort of "mimicry" where you act as "you should." How "one" should act is often determined by an image one has of how one such as oneself (say, a bank manager) acts. This image usually corresponds to some sort of social norm. This does not mean that all acting in accordance with social norms is bad faith: The main point is the attitude you takes to your own freedom, and the extent to which you act in accordance with this freedom. A sign of bad faith can be something like the denial of responsibility for something you have done on the grounds that you just did "as one does" or that your genes determined you to do as you did. Lying to yourself might appear impossible or contradictory. Sartre denies the subconscious the power to do this, and he claims that the person who is lying to himself has to be aware that he is lying - that he isn't determined, or this "thing" he makes himself out to be.
Quote from: füle on April 29, 2011, 04:51:44 PMQuote from: die Sage on November 07, 2008, 12:49:22 PMThe existentialist concept of freedom is often misunderstood as a sort of liberum arbitrium where almost anything is possible and where values are inconsequential to choice and action. This interpretation of the concept is often related to the insistence on the absurdity of the world and that there are no relevant or absolutely "good" or "bad" values. However, that there are no values to be found in the world in-itself doesn't mean that there are no values: each of us usually already has his values before a consideration of their validity is carried through, and it is, after all, upon these values we act.For one, Sartre was no hippie, but a serious, even austere thinker, with the soul of a moralist. He maintained that being human means being free. The freedom to make yourself, and your acting on this freedom, are what you are. In his more hyperbolic moments, Sartre goes so far as to say that a human being is freedom. Nothing left to lose? If existence precedes essence, we're not only free to create ourselves; we're also free of any inherent, built-in baggage. Because we're nothing, nothing is compelling or prejudicing our choices or our actions. Any choice is possible. That kind of freedom can be overwhelming, and Sartre doesn't think it's anything to take lightly. Condemned To Be Free (And Responsible), Whether You Like It Or Not. And Sartre calls this an optimistic philosophy? Well, yes, he does. But it's always an optimism about where we can go from where we start. This discussion deals with the human condition -- the starting place, which he admits can look pretty bleak at times. The sense in which that starting place (freedom) is something we're "condemned" to basically has the following two aspects: the first is the inescapability of that freedom. You're free in life to make any choices, but whether you'll be free isn't one of them. It's an inescapable part of your human condition, like it or not. The second aspect is the weight of freedom. You experience your freedom as a great burden because it's a tremendous responsibility. If your freedom is inescapable, so is your responsibility. Finally, Free Choice Creates Value And Meaning. If God doesn't exist, no eternal, objective measure of value exists, and nothing has any inherent meaning. This doesn't mean, however, that life has no meaning, or value at all. It's just that every meaning and value is a human meaning or a human value. And because human beings have no human nature and no inherent values or meaning, we're constantly creating those human meanings and values. You see, Sartre, was not some kind of naturalist who equates human beings with animals or sees a human being as minuscule speck of dust before the grandeur of the universe. The universe is filled with objects that are conscious of nothing, feel nothing, choose nothing, and value nothing. The Milky Way, for all its vastness, is as dumb and senseless as a rock. Only human beings make choices and make themselves into something. Although it's true that we start as nothing, we have the power to make something of ourselves and the freedom to determine what that will be. Freedom is the source of human dignity.I tend to think Sartre has described the idea that we are terribly free to make our choices in such a way that ironically no one would accept it...Consider the "causal chain." Most "free will"-ers reject the idea that freedom of action consists simply in "voluntary" behavior. They insist, rather, that free will means that man must be the "ultimate" or "originating" cause of his actions. He must be a causa sui, in the traditional phrase. To be responsible for one's choices is to be the first cause of those choices, where first cause means that there is no antecedent cause of that cause. The argument, then, is that if man has free will, then man is the ultimate cause of his actions. If determinism is true, then all of man's choices are caused by events and facts outside his control. So, if everything man does is caused by events and facts outside his control, then he cannot be the ultimate cause of his actions. Therefore, he cannot have free will.Also, if determinism is true, then we have no control over the events of the past that determined our present state and no control over the laws of nature. Since we can have no control over these matters, we also can have no control over the consequences of them. Since our present choices and acts are the necessary consequences of the past and the laws of nature, then we have no control over them and, hence, no free will.
Quote from: die Sage on November 07, 2008, 12:49:22 PMThe existentialist concept of freedom is often misunderstood as a sort of liberum arbitrium where almost anything is possible and where values are inconsequential to choice and action. This interpretation of the concept is often related to the insistence on the absurdity of the world and that there are no relevant or absolutely "good" or "bad" values. However, that there are no values to be found in the world in-itself doesn't mean that there are no values: each of us usually already has his values before a consideration of their validity is carried through, and it is, after all, upon these values we act.For one, Sartre was no hippie, but a serious, even austere thinker, with the soul of a moralist. He maintained that being human means being free. The freedom to make yourself, and your acting on this freedom, are what you are. In his more hyperbolic moments, Sartre goes so far as to say that a human being is freedom. Nothing left to lose? If existence precedes essence, we're not only free to create ourselves; we're also free of any inherent, built-in baggage. Because we're nothing, nothing is compelling or prejudicing our choices or our actions. Any choice is possible. That kind of freedom can be overwhelming, and Sartre doesn't think it's anything to take lightly. Condemned To Be Free (And Responsible), Whether You Like It Or Not. And Sartre calls this an optimistic philosophy? Well, yes, he does. But it's always an optimism about where we can go from where we start. This discussion deals with the human condition -- the starting place, which he admits can look pretty bleak at times. The sense in which that starting place (freedom) is something we're "condemned" to basically has the following two aspects: the first is the inescapability of that freedom. You're free in life to make any choices, but whether you'll be free isn't one of them. It's an inescapable part of your human condition, like it or not. The second aspect is the weight of freedom. You experience your freedom as a great burden because it's a tremendous responsibility. If your freedom is inescapable, so is your responsibility. Finally, Free Choice Creates Value And Meaning. If God doesn't exist, no eternal, objective measure of value exists, and nothing has any inherent meaning. This doesn't mean, however, that life has no meaning, or value at all. It's just that every meaning and value is a human meaning or a human value. And because human beings have no human nature and no inherent values or meaning, we're constantly creating those human meanings and values. You see, Sartre, was not some kind of naturalist who equates human beings with animals or sees a human being as minuscule speck of dust before the grandeur of the universe. The universe is filled with objects that are conscious of nothing, feel nothing, choose nothing, and value nothing. The Milky Way, for all its vastness, is as dumb and senseless as a rock. Only human beings make choices and make themselves into something. Although it's true that we start as nothing, we have the power to make something of ourselves and the freedom to determine what that will be. Freedom is the source of human dignity.I tend to think Sartre has described the idea that we are terribly free to make our choices in such a way that ironically no one would accept it...
The existentialist concept of freedom is often misunderstood as a sort of liberum arbitrium where almost anything is possible and where values are inconsequential to choice and action. This interpretation of the concept is often related to the insistence on the absurdity of the world and that there are no relevant or absolutely "good" or "bad" values. However, that there are no values to be found in the world in-itself doesn't mean that there are no values: each of us usually already has his values before a consideration of their validity is carried through, and it is, after all, upon these values we act.For one, Sartre was no hippie, but a serious, even austere thinker, with the soul of a moralist. He maintained that being human means being free. The freedom to make yourself, and your acting on this freedom, are what you are. In his more hyperbolic moments, Sartre goes so far as to say that a human being is freedom. Nothing left to lose? If existence precedes essence, we're not only free to create ourselves; we're also free of any inherent, built-in baggage. Because we're nothing, nothing is compelling or prejudicing our choices or our actions. Any choice is possible. That kind of freedom can be overwhelming, and Sartre doesn't think it's anything to take lightly. Condemned To Be Free (And Responsible), Whether You Like It Or Not. And Sartre calls this an optimistic philosophy? Well, yes, he does. But it's always an optimism about where we can go from where we start. This discussion deals with the human condition -- the starting place, which he admits can look pretty bleak at times. The sense in which that starting place (freedom) is something we're "condemned" to basically has the following two aspects: the first is the inescapability of that freedom. You're free in life to make any choices, but whether you'll be free isn't one of them. It's an inescapable part of your human condition, like it or not. The second aspect is the weight of freedom. You experience your freedom as a great burden because it's a tremendous responsibility. If your freedom is inescapable, so is your responsibility. Finally, Free Choice Creates Value And Meaning. If God doesn't exist, no eternal, objective measure of value exists, and nothing has any inherent meaning. This doesn't mean, however, that life has no meaning, or value at all. It's just that every meaning and value is a human meaning or a human value. And because human beings have no human nature and no inherent values or meaning, we're constantly creating those human meanings and values. You see, Sartre, was not some kind of naturalist who equates human beings with animals or sees a human being as minuscule speck of dust before the grandeur of the universe. The universe is filled with objects that are conscious of nothing, feel nothing, choose nothing, and value nothing. The Milky Way, for all its vastness, is as dumb and senseless as a rock. Only human beings make choices and make themselves into something. Although it's true that we start as nothing, we have the power to make something of ourselves and the freedom to determine what that will be. Freedom is the source of human dignity.
Quote from: latitude on January 02, 2009, 11:39:53 AMQuote from: cabull on December 30, 2008, 04:52:44 PMDNA samples to be taken from everyone arrested by U.S. authoritiesApril 16, 2008The Washington Post reports that DNA samples will be taken from all U.S. citizens arrested for federal crimes and from foreigners detained by U.S. authorities. Currently, genetic material is collected — through a cheek swab — only from people convicted of federal crimes. The rule change, which the Post says will be published in the Federal Register in the coming days, aligns the federal government with 13 states that already take DNA samples and turn them over to the U.S. agencies. USA Today's Kevin Johnson wrote earlier this week that the states are expanding their collection of DNA and that 21 others are considering following suit. Congress gave the Justice Department the power to expand DNA collection to help catch suspects in domestic crimes. Taking DNA from detained foreigners is a first. Privacy advocates object to the change, arguing it goes far beyond the original scope of the federal DNA database, which was aimed at violent criminals. They say the FBI or other federal agencies might permanently keep people's DNA on file even if they are released without being charged formally, have charges dropped or are acquitted in court. The AP is following the story.Police forces may collect DNA samples without the suspects' knowledge, and use it as evidence. Legality of this mode of proceeding has been questioned in Australia. In the United States, it has been accepted, courts often claiming that there was no expectation of privacy, citing California v. Greenwood (1985), during which the Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment does not prohibit the warrantless search and seizure of garbage left for collection outside the curtilage of a home. Critics of this practice underline the fact that this analogy ignores that "most people have no idea that they risk surrendering their genetic identity to the police by, for instance, failing to destroy a used coffee cup. Moreover, even if they do realize it, there is no way to avoid abandoning one's DNA in public."http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/science/03dna.html?ex=1364961600&en=8e0f6894f0f02abc&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalinkQuote from: capcha on March 13, 2011, 04:11:44 PMQuote from: artistic differences on December 31, 2008, 11:46:24 AMPeople are often told that such DNA samples are "voluntary," especially in cases when no arrest has been effectuated and the police rounds up people for DNA sampling (they take like 600 samples to "solve" one case). Well, you know, it's really not very voluntary when police come to you and say, give us a sample or we're going to consider you a suspect and we're going to take additional action. It's really a mistake to call this voluntary; it's a sort of an illusion to call it voluntary. The idea of "consent" is illusory because there's an element of coercion involved -- because in these cases even when people have said they were not going to give the sample, court orders were issued to force them to give the sample. People knew quite well what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate here, of they didn't provide a sample. They would become suspects, they'd be interrogated, they'd be subjected to much worse treatment than if they simply gave the sample. It is frustrating the police use DNA roundups with no obvious purpose not only to deprive people of their rights but also waste police resources. A court in an Ann Arbor case said that there was a law, it's called the Constitution of the United States, and that the individuals, who "voluntarily" give a sample under these situations -- which can only be described as duress -- are entitled to the sample back. People rightfully are concerned about how their samples might be used floating around in some police station somewhere. And the fact is that part of the reason for not getting the sample back, or at least thinking on the part of police about not giving it back, is the nature of "consent" that went into the first instance. The police is violating the 4th Amendment rights of the people asked for samples because there has been no individualized suspicion associating them with the case under investigation. These DNA samples taking can be appropriately labeled as "DNA sweeps." As the racial profiling controversy has indicated, the process of requesting permission to search involves potential abuses of citizen rights. Particularly in African-American and Hispanic communities, DNA sweeps reinforce the impression that the police is stereotyping people of color, and as a consequence aggravate long-standing tensions that community policing and other efforts are designed to overcome. A Model Policy follows here: "No DNA sample shall be obtained from any person for any law enforcement purpose in connection with an investigation of a crime without probably cause, a court order, or voluntary consent as described in subdivision (2) of this section;".Section 2 requires that "sample is knowingly and voluntarily given;" that the person be "informed by a written advisory ... that the request may be refused and that refusal does not provide probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe that the person has committed a crime," and that "the person signs the advisory;" Section 2 also states that "No threat, pressure, duress, or coercion of any kind be employed." The statement of a detective that should the person refuse to provide the sample he or she will be watched by the police because he'd be considered a suspect clearly violates the above rule.Usually the police will arrest a person on some minor (false) charge to create the duress under which the arrested person is placed to "consent" to give the sample. Then, he or she will usually be told by the police that s/he has the option to refuse to sign the paperwork for the sample to be taken, but it is in his/her advantage to give the sample, for in that case the charges will be dropped. This is clearly a violation of the law, and you should complain - you have as evidence the recorded declaration of the person trying to make you go ahead and "consent" to the sample being taken. It is in your best interest to have stated to the detectives that you wanted to talk first to an attorney, since you are not well-versed in these matters. The refusal of the police to allow you time to have an attorney on your side before consenting to giving the sample will later on be in your advantage when you take the issue to court. People usually believe they have no option here but to give the sample, since there must be some major unsolved case (like rape/murder not being solved for years by the local boys) and the FBI is probably involved. This may or may not be true, but in any case they (police departments) regularly request these samples, knowing full well that they are violating the civil liberties of the people. Do not worry, the law is on your side: The courts have already upheld only the DNA sampling of convicted felons, based on the theory that the convicted have fewer privacy rights. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that when conducting intrusions of the body during an investigation, the police need so-called "exigent circumstances" or a warrant. That alcohol evaporates in the blood stream is the exigent circumstance to draw blood from a suspected drunk driver without a warrant. They have to have a warrant from a judge to get a DNA sample from you; absent that, you can take them to court - read the law and do not allow to be pushed around by your government.Do they not take you in and sign the advisories and the like to take the sample only after they are sure YOU are their guy, after getting a match with your DNA gained "on sly"? Maybe I am not seeing the whole picture here, but why would they go into all that signing thing when they can get your sample as easily as it's being described in the article?
Quote from: cabull on December 30, 2008, 04:52:44 PMDNA samples to be taken from everyone arrested by U.S. authoritiesApril 16, 2008The Washington Post reports that DNA samples will be taken from all U.S. citizens arrested for federal crimes and from foreigners detained by U.S. authorities. Currently, genetic material is collected — through a cheek swab — only from people convicted of federal crimes. The rule change, which the Post says will be published in the Federal Register in the coming days, aligns the federal government with 13 states that already take DNA samples and turn them over to the U.S. agencies. USA Today's Kevin Johnson wrote earlier this week that the states are expanding their collection of DNA and that 21 others are considering following suit. Congress gave the Justice Department the power to expand DNA collection to help catch suspects in domestic crimes. Taking DNA from detained foreigners is a first. Privacy advocates object to the change, arguing it goes far beyond the original scope of the federal DNA database, which was aimed at violent criminals. They say the FBI or other federal agencies might permanently keep people's DNA on file even if they are released without being charged formally, have charges dropped or are acquitted in court. The AP is following the story.Police forces may collect DNA samples without the suspects' knowledge, and use it as evidence. Legality of this mode of proceeding has been questioned in Australia. In the United States, it has been accepted, courts often claiming that there was no expectation of privacy, citing California v. Greenwood (1985), during which the Supreme Court held that the Fourth Amendment does not prohibit the warrantless search and seizure of garbage left for collection outside the curtilage of a home. Critics of this practice underline the fact that this analogy ignores that "most people have no idea that they risk surrendering their genetic identity to the police by, for instance, failing to destroy a used coffee cup. Moreover, even if they do realize it, there is no way to avoid abandoning one's DNA in public."http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/03/science/03dna.html?ex=1364961600&en=8e0f6894f0f02abc&ei=5124&partner=permalink&exprod=permalink
DNA samples to be taken from everyone arrested by U.S. authoritiesApril 16, 2008The Washington Post reports that DNA samples will be taken from all U.S. citizens arrested for federal crimes and from foreigners detained by U.S. authorities. Currently, genetic material is collected — through a cheek swab — only from people convicted of federal crimes. The rule change, which the Post says will be published in the Federal Register in the coming days, aligns the federal government with 13 states that already take DNA samples and turn them over to the U.S. agencies. USA Today's Kevin Johnson wrote earlier this week that the states are expanding their collection of DNA and that 21 others are considering following suit. Congress gave the Justice Department the power to expand DNA collection to help catch suspects in domestic crimes. Taking DNA from detained foreigners is a first. Privacy advocates object to the change, arguing it goes far beyond the original scope of the federal DNA database, which was aimed at violent criminals. They say the FBI or other federal agencies might permanently keep people's DNA on file even if they are released without being charged formally, have charges dropped or are acquitted in court. The AP is following the story.
Quote from: artistic differences on December 31, 2008, 11:46:24 AMPeople are often told that such DNA samples are "voluntary," especially in cases when no arrest has been effectuated and the police rounds up people for DNA sampling (they take like 600 samples to "solve" one case). Well, you know, it's really not very voluntary when police come to you and say, give us a sample or we're going to consider you a suspect and we're going to take additional action. It's really a mistake to call this voluntary; it's a sort of an illusion to call it voluntary. The idea of "consent" is illusory because there's an element of coercion involved -- because in these cases even when people have said they were not going to give the sample, court orders were issued to force them to give the sample. People knew quite well what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate here, of they didn't provide a sample. They would become suspects, they'd be interrogated, they'd be subjected to much worse treatment than if they simply gave the sample. It is frustrating the police use DNA roundups with no obvious purpose not only to deprive people of their rights but also waste police resources. A court in an Ann Arbor case said that there was a law, it's called the Constitution of the United States, and that the individuals, who "voluntarily" give a sample under these situations -- which can only be described as duress -- are entitled to the sample back. People rightfully are concerned about how their samples might be used floating around in some police station somewhere. And the fact is that part of the reason for not getting the sample back, or at least thinking on the part of police about not giving it back, is the nature of "consent" that went into the first instance. The police is violating the 4th Amendment rights of the people asked for samples because there has been no individualized suspicion associating them with the case under investigation. These DNA samples taking can be appropriately labeled as "DNA sweeps." As the racial profiling controversy has indicated, the process of requesting permission to search involves potential abuses of citizen rights. Particularly in African-American and Hispanic communities, DNA sweeps reinforce the impression that the police is stereotyping people of color, and as a consequence aggravate long-standing tensions that community policing and other efforts are designed to overcome. A Model Policy follows here: "No DNA sample shall be obtained from any person for any law enforcement purpose in connection with an investigation of a crime without probably cause, a court order, or voluntary consent as described in subdivision (2) of this section;".Section 2 requires that "sample is knowingly and voluntarily given;" that the person be "informed by a written advisory ... that the request may be refused and that refusal does not provide probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe that the person has committed a crime," and that "the person signs the advisory;" Section 2 also states that "No threat, pressure, duress, or coercion of any kind be employed." The statement of a detective that should the person refuse to provide the sample he or she will be watched by the police because he'd be considered a suspect clearly violates the above rule.Usually the police will arrest a person on some minor (false) charge to create the duress under which the arrested person is placed to "consent" to give the sample. Then, he or she will usually be told by the police that s/he has the option to refuse to sign the paperwork for the sample to be taken, but it is in his/her advantage to give the sample, for in that case the charges will be dropped. This is clearly a violation of the law, and you should complain - you have as evidence the recorded declaration of the person trying to make you go ahead and "consent" to the sample being taken. It is in your best interest to have stated to the detectives that you wanted to talk first to an attorney, since you are not well-versed in these matters. The refusal of the police to allow you time to have an attorney on your side before consenting to giving the sample will later on be in your advantage when you take the issue to court. People usually believe they have no option here but to give the sample, since there must be some major unsolved case (like rape/murder not being solved for years by the local boys) and the FBI is probably involved. This may or may not be true, but in any case they (police departments) regularly request these samples, knowing full well that they are violating the civil liberties of the people. Do not worry, the law is on your side: The courts have already upheld only the DNA sampling of convicted felons, based on the theory that the convicted have fewer privacy rights. The U.S. Supreme Court has held that when conducting intrusions of the body during an investigation, the police need so-called "exigent circumstances" or a warrant. That alcohol evaporates in the blood stream is the exigent circumstance to draw blood from a suspected drunk driver without a warrant. They have to have a warrant from a judge to get a DNA sample from you; absent that, you can take them to court - read the law and do not allow to be pushed around by your government.
People are often told that such DNA samples are "voluntary," especially in cases when no arrest has been effectuated and the police rounds up people for DNA sampling (they take like 600 samples to "solve" one case). Well, you know, it's really not very voluntary when police come to you and say, give us a sample or we're going to consider you a suspect and we're going to take additional action. It's really a mistake to call this voluntary; it's a sort of an illusion to call it voluntary. The idea of "consent" is illusory because there's an element of coercion involved -- because in these cases even when people have said they were not going to give the sample, court orders were issued to force them to give the sample. People knew quite well what would happen to them if they didn't cooperate here, of they didn't provide a sample. They would become suspects, they'd be interrogated, they'd be subjected to much worse treatment than if they simply gave the sample. It is frustrating the police use DNA roundups with no obvious purpose not only to deprive people of their rights but also waste police resources. A court in an Ann Arbor case said that there was a law, it's called the Constitution of the United States, and that the individuals, who "voluntarily" give a sample under these situations -- which can only be described as duress -- are entitled to the sample back. People rightfully are concerned about how their samples might be used floating around in some police station somewhere. And the fact is that part of the reason for not getting the sample back, or at least thinking on the part of police about not giving it back, is the nature of "consent" that went into the first instance. The police is violating the 4th Amendment rights of the people asked for samples because there has been no individualized suspicion associating them with the case under investigation. These DNA samples taking can be appropriately labeled as "DNA sweeps." As the racial profiling controversy has indicated, the process of requesting permission to search involves potential abuses of citizen rights. Particularly in African-American and Hispanic communities, DNA sweeps reinforce the impression that the police is stereotyping people of color, and as a consequence aggravate long-standing tensions that community policing and other efforts are designed to overcome. A Model Policy follows here: "No DNA sample shall be obtained from any person for any law enforcement purpose in connection with an investigation of a crime without probably cause, a court order, or voluntary consent as described in subdivision (2) of this section;".Section 2 requires that "sample is knowingly and voluntarily given;" that the person be "informed by a written advisory ... that the request may be refused and that refusal does not provide probable cause or reasonable suspicion to believe that the person has committed a crime," and that "the person signs the advisory;" Section 2 also states that "No threat, pressure, duress, or coercion of any kind be employed." The statement of a detective that should the person refuse to provide the sample he or she will be watched by the police because he'd be considered a suspect clearly violates the above rule.
Quote from: marygo on December 25, 2007, 01:31:50 PMQuote from: aon on July 12, 2007, 03:45:26 AMQuote from: morpheme on September 12, 2006, 11:10:48 PMKeyboard commands are indeed important to know ... I'm pretty sure you will have to work one day with the keyboard commands alone ... a friend of mine had an instance when the screen froze completely and the mouse simply wouldn't work ... the only way to save a few files before actually shutting down the computer (and losing everything after a system restore was executed) was to use the functioning keyboard...Right on! I mean this seems quite unimportant at first sight, but believe me, it is the most important thing in the world in those moments when you just can't make the computer work! Yeah right, hang on that! How could you possibly think you can make the computer work using the keyboard commands??? ARE YOU NUTS?Don't you think it's time to wake up and run down the street to your technician, buy the piece of equipment that's needed and do the whole thing the way it can be done? Thank you!!!
Quote from: aon on July 12, 2007, 03:45:26 AMQuote from: morpheme on September 12, 2006, 11:10:48 PMKeyboard commands are indeed important to know ... I'm pretty sure you will have to work one day with the keyboard commands alone ... a friend of mine had an instance when the screen froze completely and the mouse simply wouldn't work ... the only way to save a few files before actually shutting down the computer (and losing everything after a system restore was executed) was to use the functioning keyboard...Right on! I mean this seems quite unimportant at first sight, but believe me, it is the most important thing in the world in those moments when you just can't make the computer work! Yeah right, hang on that! How could you possibly think you can make the computer work using the keyboard commands??? ARE YOU NUTS?Don't you think it's time to wake up and run down the street to your technician, buy the piece of equipment that's needed and do the whole thing the way it can be done?
Quote from: morpheme on September 12, 2006, 11:10:48 PMKeyboard commands are indeed important to know ... I'm pretty sure you will have to work one day with the keyboard commands alone ... a friend of mine had an instance when the screen froze completely and the mouse simply wouldn't work ... the only way to save a few files before actually shutting down the computer (and losing everything after a system restore was executed) was to use the functioning keyboard...Right on! I mean this seems quite unimportant at first sight, but believe me, it is the most important thing in the world in those moments when you just can't make the computer work!
Keyboard commands are indeed important to know ... I'm pretty sure you will have to work one day with the keyboard commands alone ... a friend of mine had an instance when the screen froze completely and the mouse simply wouldn't work ... the only way to save a few files before actually shutting down the computer (and losing everything after a system restore was executed) was to use the functioning keyboard...
Quote from: k o a n on December 31, 2008, 01:21:35 PMDerrida is very interesting indeed - If his writing has no extractable concepts or method, we can still loo at WHAT it does: what EFFETCS it has. Derrida offers a way of thinking these effects. By his own account, his writing has a matrix. Its two strands are DERAILED COMMUNICATION and UNDECIDABILITY. Derrida finds both of these in the figure of the VIRUS. "Everything I have done is dominated by the thought of a virus, the virus being many things. Follow two threads. One, the virus introduces disorder into communication, even in the biological sphere -- a derail of coding and decoding. Two, a virus is not a microbe, it is neither living nor non-living, neither alive nor dead. Follow these threads and you have the matrix of all I have done since I started writing." http://www.avatarhosting.net/pics/8144/Dissemination.jpgA poststructualist theorist to the core, Derrida bases much of the theory explicated in Dissemination on the process of infinite semiosis -- the endless reproduction of signs. The concept of difference is quite useful in drawing out this process, which explains how scission leads to both dissemination and trace. It is no coincidence that infinite semiosis resembles biological mitosis in cell organisms, particularly viruses (even by the name). This is precisely the metaphor that Derrida shoots for in Dissemination. The way by which a virus reproduces itself is eerily comparable to differance. In order to procreate, a virus must first invade a normal cell. After that, the cell replicates with the virus inside it, and every cell generated thereafter will continue to contain the infection. The important lines of correspondence in this scenario are drawn between, 1) the mitotic split and "scission," which results in the propagation of more distinct, autonomous signs 2) and the persistence of the virus, which is analogous to the enduring trace that unveils the filial relationships between signs. Much like with the virus, both these functions, bound together in differance, are necessary circumstances for meaning to exist and proliferate.
Derrida is very interesting indeed - If his writing has no extractable concepts or method, we can still loo at WHAT it does: what EFFETCS it has. Derrida offers a way of thinking these effects. By his own account, his writing has a matrix. Its two strands are DERAILED COMMUNICATION and UNDECIDABILITY. Derrida finds both of these in the figure of the VIRUS. "Everything I have done is dominated by the thought of a virus, the virus being many things. Follow two threads. One, the virus introduces disorder into communication, even in the biological sphere -- a derail of coding and decoding. Two, a virus is not a microbe, it is neither living nor non-living, neither alive nor dead. Follow these threads and you have the matrix of all I have done since I started writing."
[...]Like authenticity, the topic of fate recurs throughout NBK. "Do you believe in fate?" is one of the first questions that Mickey asks Mallory. During the conversation in the prison after Mickey has been apprehended for grand theft, he tells Mallory that nothing can stop fate. (Fate is defined as the inevitability of a course of events predetermined by God or other agency beyond human control. Fatalism is the acceptance of all events as inevitable.) He also describes himself to Wayne Gayle as "fate's messenger." Mickey is a fatalist, which is to say that he accepts all events as inevitable. As a result, he is unburdened by any sense of responsibility for his actions. Ironically, it is Mickey's rejection of the concept of free will that makes him so free to be authentic. In his world all events are determined by factors beyond his control, thus the concepts of good and evil or guilt and innocence, are artificial constructs. This theory was also that of Nietzsche, who rejected free will and joyfully embraced fatalism. Nietzsche writes: Quote The fable of intelligible freedom: Now one finally discovers that this human nature, too, cannot be accountable, in as much as it is a necessary consequence and assembled from the elements and influences of things past and present: That is to say that man can be made accountable for nothing, not for his nature, nor for his motives, nor for his actions, nor for the effects he produces. One has thereby attained to the knowledge that the history of the moral sensations is the history of an error, the error of accountability which rests on the error of freedom of the will...The proposition is as clear as daylight, and yet here everyone prefers to retreat back into the shadows and untruth: from fear of the consequences. (Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human in The Vision of Nietzsche, 66.) Like Nietzsche's superman, Mickey embraces fatalism and places himself beyond the categories of good and evil. Unburdened by guilt and responsibility, he is free do whatever he wants. Needless to say, Mickey is an unsavory example of what denial of free will and personal responsibility might lead to. As Nietzsche points out, the arguments against free will are very convincing but one is loathe to accept them because of the possible consequences. For Nietzsche, human beings have not only an instinct to survive, they incessantly strive to amplify and intensify their life experience and constantly endeavor to express their own vitality and strength.
The fable of intelligible freedom: Now one finally discovers that this human nature, too, cannot be accountable, in as much as it is a necessary consequence and assembled from the elements and influences of things past and present: That is to say that man can be made accountable for nothing, not for his nature, nor for his motives, nor for his actions, nor for the effects he produces. One has thereby attained to the knowledge that the history of the moral sensations is the history of an error, the error of accountability which rests on the error of freedom of the will...The proposition is as clear as daylight, and yet here everyone prefers to retreat back into the shadows and untruth: from fear of the consequences. (Nietzsche, Human, All Too Human in The Vision of Nietzsche, 66.)
Quotetg on August 01, 2007, 06:30:15 PM[...] Do individuals control history, or do history and fate control individuals? The prescience of genius is an argument in favor of fate, and an argument against free will; if events can be foreseen long before they occur, they must have been caused neither by individuals nor by circumstances, but by history and fate. It appears that Hitler was the cause of the Holocaust, and that the Depression was the cause of Hitler's rise to power. But if the Holocaust was foreseen a century before it occurred, then it can't be ascribed to particular individuals, or to particular circumstances. While Hitler was the proximate cause of the Holocaust, and while the Depression was the proximate cause of Hitler's rise to power, the root causes of these events lie far deeper than any particular individuals or particular circumstances.[...]Interesting, could you please elaborate a bit more on this?
tg on August 01, 2007, 06:30:15 PM[...] Do individuals control history, or do history and fate control individuals? The prescience of genius is an argument in favor of fate, and an argument against free will; if events can be foreseen long before they occur, they must have been caused neither by individuals nor by circumstances, but by history and fate. It appears that Hitler was the cause of the Holocaust, and that the Depression was the cause of Hitler's rise to power. But if the Holocaust was foreseen a century before it occurred, then it can't be ascribed to particular individuals, or to particular circumstances. While Hitler was the proximate cause of the Holocaust, and while the Depression was the proximate cause of Hitler's rise to power, the root causes of these events lie far deeper than any particular individuals or particular circumstances.[...]
A Nazi administrator at Treblinka, according to one historian, had a harem of little Jewish boys and sought in Treblinka only the satisfaction of his homosexual instincts. In some camps, SS guards would actually sponsor lotteries to see which of the "young attractive homosexuals" would go to whom. The "butch" homosexual guards and capos were capable of unrestrained cruelty, sadism and savagery. A guard at Auschwitz, for instance, strangled, crushed and gnawed to death as many as 100 boys and young men a day while raping them at his leisure. Historian Frank Rector writes of a film made by the SS that was secretly made for the enjoyment of a select coterie of Nazis showing a wild drunken orgy of beautiful boys and handsome young men being whipped, raped and murdered by the SS.