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blackjesus

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #120 on: July 13, 2006, 05:36:32 PM »

People like you amuse me. You spend your whole lives convincing yourself that you are better than other people because of your pay check, or your degree, or your school... You register at a law forum and tell seasoned law students that they will be ambulance chasers?


Conventional wisdom holds that lawyers are like blood sucking leeches to a big animal. You've probably heard that if you find that perfect case and round-up all the clients it could be instant retirement for the rest of your life. For instance, many of the medical companies and big corporations will settle even before going to court so that it doesn't tarnish their public image.

Well, it's not that simple. The big money cases are few and far between. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of million plus cases you'll be working. Most are around $20,000.

The million dollar cases are a LOT of work. First, you gotta find the perfect client -- preferably one who does not think he won the lottery for a fender-bender. I mean seriously injured or seriously screwed over. Then you got do all the preliminary investigation. Then you got to go through settlement negotiations before you file suit. Then you file suit. Then you gotta go through long protracted discovery. The usual limits are usually waived by agreement in these cases. You can be dealing with literally hundreds of interrogatories and requests for production -- to your client. Then you have to propound the same on the jerkface defendant. Then you gotta wade through all that stuff. Then you gotta supplement the discovery. Then you take depositions -- usually lots of experts (which you already located) which tend to run to the thousands of dollars. Then you gotta go through more settlement negotiations. If you are lucky, it ends here. If not, you gotta go through trial. If you win, then you might get a real settlement offer to avoid an appeal. If not, you get to go through the appeals process. We are talking 4 or 5 years with no money coming in on this case, but lots going out. The experts want to be paid up front. The deposition company won't wait until after the case is over to be paid. There is a lot of time and effort that goes into these major cases.

What really keeps the firm going is the smaller cases, the $20,000 - $50,000 ones that hopefully settle quick. PI can have big payoffs, but they take a TON of effort.

fenway024

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #121 on: July 14, 2006, 12:27:56 PM »
SECTION: METRO/REGION; Pg. B3

LENGTH: 533 words

HEADLINE: PROSECUTORS MOONLIGHT TO MAKE ENDS MEET;
ASSISTANT DAS SAY THEY LOVE 1ST JOBS

BYLINE: BY EMILY SWEENEY, GLOBE STAFF

BODY:


After spending all day in court, Assistant District Attorney John McLaughlin often drives his '98 Ford Explorer to a second job at a funeral home in East Milton Square. Assistant District Attorney Suzanne Dunleavy spends her nights and weekends teaching Irish step dancing classes for extra money. Other cash-strapped prosecutors moonlight tending bar, wiping tables, mopping supermarket floors, or painting houses. One drives the Zamboni at an ice rink.

The starting salary for assistant district attorneys is $35,000, not enough for many young prosecutors to live on and to pay off their law school loans.

Fifteen percent of the state's assistant district attorneys work second jobs, according to a 2004 survey by the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association. In Suffolk County, 1 in 5 moonlights.

McLaughlin, 32, has friends working at private law firms who make double his salary. But his frequent court work he has tried some 300 cases brings rewards that cannot be measured in cash, he said.

"I love this job; I like working with the victims," he said. "There's nothing better than winning a case for a victim. It lets people know that the system works sometimes."

To be an assistant district attorney, "I think you have to have a second job," he said. "We lose a lot of people because they just can't afford it."

McLaughlin has had a second job throughout his seven-year career at the Plymouth district attorney's office. Several nights a week, he tends to grieving families at the Alfred D. Thomas Funeral Home in Milton. (Last month, he worked 11 wakes.)

It's a perfect part-time gig because wakes "don't start until I get out of court," he said.

"People come up to me at funerals and ask if I'll be there the next day, and I say, `No, I'll be in court,' " he said.

"People are shocked all the time. People assume lawyers make a lot of money . . . but not on this side of it."

Dunleavy, 27, was a competitive Irish step dancer when she landed a job in the Plymouth district attorney's office. She started giving dance lessons in 2004 to earn extra cash. In January, she and a business partner started the Dunleavy Shaffer School of Irish Dance.

Stephen Patten, a 31-year-old assistant district attorney in Essex County, splits his time between Gloucester District Court and Newburyport District Court, and then works the evening shift at a health club in Beverly.

Before getting the part-time job at the health club, Patten worked at Stop & Shop in North Beverly.

He was stationed at the supermarket's deli counter, where he sliced meat, served customers, cleaned equipment, and mopped floors for 20 hours each week.

Acquaintances and former high school classmates occasionally would come in to Stop & Shop. When they saw him working in the deli, they'd ask, "Aren't you a lawyer now?"

Patten would reply, "I am, and I pay $1,000 a month in school loans."

He said his girlfriend, a paralegal in Boston, makes more than he does. But he can't imagine leaving his prosecutor's job.

"It's a wonderful, wonderful occupation," he said. "I would do it the rest of my life if I can afford it. Having a second job has allowed me to continue to do what I love."

Emily Sweeney can be reached at esweeney@globe.com.

rev

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #122 on: July 14, 2006, 05:45:28 PM »

People like you amuse me. You spend your whole lives convincing yourself that you are better than other people because of your pay check, or your degree, or your school... You register at a law forum and tell seasoned law students that they will be ambulance chasers?


Conventional wisdom holds that lawyers are like blood sucking leeches to a big animal. You've probably heard that if you find that perfect case and round-up all the clients it could be instant retirement for the rest of your life. For instance, many of the medical companies and big corporations will settle even before going to court so that it doesn't tarnish their public image.

Well, it's not that simple. The big money cases are few and far between. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of million plus cases you'll be working. Most are around $20,000.

The million dollar cases are a LOT of work. First, you gotta find the perfect client -- preferably one who does not think he won the lottery for a fender-bender. I mean seriously injured or seriously screwed over. Then you got do all the preliminary investigation. Then you got to go through settlement negotiations before you file suit. Then you file suit. Then you gotta go through long protracted discovery. The usual limits are usually waived by agreement in these cases. You can be dealing with literally hundreds of interrogatories and requests for production -- to your client. Then you have to propound the same on the jerkface defendant. Then you gotta wade through all that stuff. Then you gotta supplement the discovery. Then you take depositions -- usually lots of experts (which you already located) which tend to run to the thousands of dollars. Then you gotta go through more settlement negotiations. If you are lucky, it ends here. If not, you gotta go through trial. If you win, then you might get a real settlement offer to avoid an appeal. If not, you get to go through the appeals process. We are talking 4 or 5 years with no money coming in on this case, but lots going out. The experts want to be paid up front. The deposition company won't wait until after the case is over to be paid. There is a lot of time and effort that goes into these major cases.

What really keeps the firm going is the smaller cases, the $20,000 - $50,000 ones that hopefully settle quick. PI can have big payoffs, but they take a TON of effort.



if you doubt this poster, i recommend reading 'a civil action'

that poor bastard won and still lost everything.

so

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #123 on: July 14, 2006, 07:54:08 PM »

SECTION: METRO/REGION; Pg. B3

LENGTH: 533 words

HEADLINE: PROSECUTORS MOONLIGHT TO MAKE ENDS MEET;
ASSISTANT DAS SAY THEY LOVE 1ST JOBS

BYLINE: BY EMILY SWEENEY, GLOBE STAFF

BODY:


After spending all day in court, Assistant District Attorney John McLaughlin often drives his '98 Ford Explorer to a second job at a funeral home in East Milton Square. Assistant District Attorney Suzanne Dunleavy spends her nights and weekends teaching Irish step dancing classes for extra money. Other cash-strapped prosecutors moonlight tending bar, wiping tables, mopping supermarket floors, or painting houses. One drives the Zamboni at an ice rink.

The starting salary for assistant district attorneys is $35,000, not enough for many young prosecutors to live on and to pay off their law school loans.

Fifteen percent of the state's assistant district attorneys work second jobs, according to a 2004 survey by the Massachusetts District Attorneys Association. In Suffolk County, 1 in 5 moonlights.

McLaughlin, 32, has friends working at private law firms who make double his salary. But his frequent court work he has tried some 300 cases brings rewards that cannot be measured in cash, he said.

"I love this job; I like working with the victims," he said. "There's nothing better than winning a case for a victim. It lets people know that the system works sometimes."

To be an assistant district attorney, "I think you have to have a second job," he said. "We lose a lot of people because they just can't afford it."

McLaughlin has had a second job throughout his seven-year career at the Plymouth district attorney's office. Several nights a week, he tends to grieving families at the Alfred D. Thomas Funeral Home in Milton. (Last month, he worked 11 wakes.)

It's a perfect part-time gig because wakes "don't start until I get out of court," he said.

"People come up to me at funerals and ask if I'll be there the next day, and I say, `No, I'll be in court,' " he said.

"People are shocked all the time. People assume lawyers make a lot of money . . . but not on this side of it."

Dunleavy, 27, was a competitive Irish step dancer when she landed a job in the Plymouth district attorney's office. She started giving dance lessons in 2004 to earn extra cash. In January, she and a business partner started the Dunleavy Shaffer School of Irish Dance.

Stephen Patten, a 31-year-old assistant district attorney in Essex County, splits his time between Gloucester District Court and Newburyport District Court, and then works the evening shift at a health club in Beverly.

Before getting the part-time job at the health club, Patten worked at Stop & Shop in North Beverly.

He was stationed at the supermarket's deli counter, where he sliced meat, served customers, cleaned equipment, and mopped floors for 20 hours each week.

Acquaintances and former high school classmates occasionally would come in to Stop & Shop. When they saw him working in the deli, they'd ask, "Aren't you a lawyer now?"

Patten would reply, "I am, and I pay $1,000 a month in school loans."

He said his girlfriend, a paralegal in Boston, makes more than he does. But he can't imagine leaving his prosecutor's job.

"It's a wonderful, wonderful occupation," he said. "I would do it the rest of my life if I can afford it. Having a second job has allowed me to continue to do what I love."

Emily Sweeney can be reached at esweeney@globe.com.


Depressingly enlightening! Thanks for posting it!

fenway024

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #124 on: July 14, 2006, 11:16:43 PM »
I posted the Boston Globe article above.  One of the problems for "poor" lawyers is that people believe that there are no poor lawyers.  People are always shocked to find out the ADAs and Public Defenders in Mass have starting salaries of $35,000, and that those salaries have not been adjusted for nearly a decade.  We love the job that we do, but we simply want to be paid a "living" wage.  So, yes there are "poor" lawyers out there, but they are poor because they are extremely dedicated and love their work.

tuned

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #125 on: July 20, 2006, 05:19:57 AM »
Corporate recruiters who heavily court 2Ls each fall play an ego-reinforcing role for student. Although students are really supportive of each other there's still a lot of uncertainty. That's where the job recruiters play a big role because they really want you to work for them and unless you've done really well in class you don't know if the law school really wants you. There's not a lot of ego-stroking in class whereas the recruiters really do that. It's like realizing that you're still really competent in spite of how the classes made you feel. The recruiters are willing to fly you around the country and put you up in the best hotels. It's like instant gratification.

Insecurity making law students vulnerable to ego-stroking by corporate recruiters. Recruiters alleviate the "uncertainty" about self-worth generated by the first-year experience. Recruiters make students feel like "they really want you" -- a feelin that law school does not produce "unless you've done really well in class."

Law school, of course, does not end when the corporate recruiters leave campus. Between the fall of 2L year and graduation, at least two other experiences can deepen the feelings of inadequacy. The first is the clerkship season. Unlike the fall corporate job fest, not everyone who applies for judicial clerkships will get one. Many people who apply discover the hard way how competitive it is, and the experience -- particularly when fellow classmates are getting interviews and offers -- can be crushing. During this process, the gulf separating the students who performed well on first-year exams or made the Law Review and those who did not becomes most evident. Yet again, no one talks about it, or if they do, it is with the hushed tones of conveying a confidence, of admitting a failing, of voicing a source of humiliation. Because a clear hierarchy of judges and courts signals to the student and others exactly where this student fits into the rigid pecking order of the legal community, even those students who do secure clerkships can experience the process as ego-bruising if they found themselves passed over by the most prestigious judges. Failure to secure a clerkship at all can be even worse, providing a substantial blow to an already battered sense of self-confidence.

Working at a firm during the summer after 2L year also reinforces the process. At their firms, students find that their affiliation with the law school brings them some kind of respect and admiration, as well as the expectation that they will produce quality work. The students in the middle of the law school pack will likely not have enjoyed such positive reinforcement for some time, and it may lead to a renewed sense of the bifurcation of self along the lines described above: a secret "knowledge" that one is only of average ability in the legal context combined with a public self that seeks to convey self-assurance to match the perception of outsiders regarding how it must feel to be a law student. Because the summer experience fosters and enhances this bifurcation, the prospect of returning to the firm after graduation can come to seem extremely appealing. It can also, however, reinforce the sense that one has become, after all, a "corporate tool" who no longer possesses the wherewithal to pursue a career personally tailored to aspirations formerly held.

This is the ultimate effect of the process: any notion that a law degree confers great possibilities has long since been abandoned. Graduates are by no means broken, but their sense of agency has been sorely undermined. In general, they no longer view themselves as capable of having an impact on the world, much less setting it on fire.

inconclusive

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #126 on: July 20, 2006, 06:54:50 PM »

klinex

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #127 on: July 21, 2006, 06:14:42 AM »
Quote
[...] Graduates are by no means broken, but their sense of agency has been sorely undermined. In general, they no longer view themselves as capable of having an impact on the world, much less setting it on fire.

What do you mean by "sense of agency"?

entelle

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #128 on: July 21, 2006, 09:49:38 PM »
According to Wittgenstein (1958), the sense of agency involves a primitive notion of the self used as subject, which does not rely on any prior perceptual identification and which is immune to error through misidentification. However, the neuroscience of action and the neuropsychology of schizophrenia show the existence of specific cognitive processes underlying the sense of agency -- the "Who" system -- which is disrupted in delusions of control.
Yep! I'm homoerotic, homophobic and heterosexual.

i

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Re: poor lawyers
« Reply #129 on: August 14, 2006, 06:19:21 PM »

According to Wittgenstein (1958), the sense of agency involves a primitive notion of the self used as subject, which does not rely on any prior perceptual identification and which is immune to error through misidentification. However, the neuroscience of action and the neuropsychology of schizophrenia show the existence of specific cognitive processes underlying the sense of agency -- the "Who" system -- which is disrupted in delusions of control.


So basically it's self as a subject !