New York Law

[ray7]

So are you saying all of those NYLS grads who are employed were in the top 10 % of their respective classes? Please. I think many people on this board loose sight of the big picture. At the end of three years we will have law degrees. A law degree, no matter your class rank was, and no matter the rank of the school, opens up many more doors, period. 

[RootBrewskies]

i dont understand the argument that so many people make abotu law schools creating unemployable lawyers.  if you look at even T3 and T4 schools they often have employement rates with 9 months of graduation of 80-95%.  that doesnt seem too unemployable to me.  there are also some that are usually not seeking a job or have gone on to some other type of education.  there may be a lot of lawyers out there but there still seems to be a need for a lot more of them.

i would venture to say that most undergraduate institutions these days would be thrilled to have numbers like that. 


people probably just say that cause at some schools the odds of you getting your dream job are slim.  but most people dont get their dream job right out of school.  put in a few years, then apply with some experience behind you, by that time your school wont even matter.

[ray7]

Exactly. Take a look at martindale.com. In NYC alone: 3,000 law firms, 1800 corporate legal departments. Lots of opportunity.

[LoverOfWomen]

So are you saying all of those NYLS grads who are employed were in the top 10 % of their respective classes? Please. I think many people on this board loose sight of the big picture. At the end of three years we will have law degrees. A law degree, no matter your class rank was, and no matter the rank of the school, opens up many more doors, period. 

This is a joke.  There were more NYLS graduates employed than passed the bar.  Clearly, not of all those "employed" were actually working in a legal profession; flipping burgers at McDonald's counts.  I'd agree with your rosy picture if it weren't for the opportunity costs of time and money that students spend on a law school.  If you graduate in the middle of a mediocre school, you have effectively wasted thousands of dollars and three years.  Sure, you might get a job, but law is an extremely prestige-oriented profession.  Connections (one area where T3/4 lawyers are massacred), believe it or not, do matter; they may in fact directly impact your ability to advocate effectively.  There's a reason why SCOTUS clerks are so prized.  Indeed, if you look at any important legal case, it is almost always passed off to a biglaw or big name organization after making it through the regional hoops.  Your ability to try a big case, in other words, is directly tied to your academic record and the perceived caliber of your firm.

If you think it doesn't matter, visit a NYC biglaw firm sometime.  No matter how hard your TTT gunner works, the YHC (Stanford stays on the West Coast usually) kids are snickering and counting the cash.

Preparing for law school is a serious commitment.  If you don't have what it takes to get into a top-flight school and earn top-flight grades, go look for work elsewhere.  Stop trying to justify failure.

[shaz]

excuse me, but are you saying that less than top flight grades from a less than top flight law school equals a failure?  i bet there are many practicing lawyers that would not agree with you.  there are about 140 non-tier 1 schools out there.  most of these future lawyers would be failures in your book. 

[LoverOfWomen]

excuse me, but are you saying that less than top flight grades from a less than top flight law school equals a failure?  i bet there are many practicing lawyers that would not agree with you.  there are about 140 non-tier 1 schools out there.  most of these future lawyers would be failures in your book. 

Unless you consider speeding ticket cases or small-time bankruptcy to be "success," my answer stays yes.  And even for those rare "rainmaker" lawyers who find a big money lawsuit, they usually end up having to pass the goods onto a biglaw court.  There's a reason why HarrieTTT Miers didn't stand a chance at SCOTUS, while Alito's Princeton/YLS pedigree effectively let him sail.

All you've shown is that there are a lot of failures out there.  *shrug* C'est la vie.

[shaz]

biglaw isn't the end all be all.  there are many small and medium sized firms that pay well.  i know a lawyer who pays his associates about 60k + bonuses for their cases.  some of the associates make nearly 100k after all is said and done.  the only tier one in the office is his partner, a penn grad.  he told me his partner is a research genius but he can't litigate for sh1t. 

[LoverOfWomen]

biglaw isn't the end all be all.  there are many small and medium sized firms that pay well.  i know a lawyer who pays his associates about 60k + bonuses for their cases.  some of the associates make nearly 100k after all is said and done.  the only tier one in the office is his partner, a penn grad.  he told me his partner is a research genius but he can't litigate for sh1t. 

"Nearly 100k" is a ridiculous return given the opportunity costs of law school. 

As for the Penn grad, this only implies that Penn is worthless; I'm willing to accept that conclusion.  Anyway, one research nerd doesn't negate the fact that the movers and shakers in law nowadays are at least t14, if not t6. 

[shaz]

movers and shakers?  some just want to be lawyers.  opportunity cost?  many take the full ride at the tier3/4.  penn worthless?  penn is not worthless.  all i was trying to show was that the school does not necessarily make the lawyer.  take myself as an example.  i will be taking the money and going to a low tier2 on a full-ride (good standing).  i want to do ip, not because of the money but because i find it interesting.  i would be more than content with 60k.  i have always wanted to be a lawyer.  i have never qualified my aspiration with the words "rich" or "big-law."  the money is unimportant to me.  all i need is enough to pay off my small student loans.  after working for a number of years i plan to get an llm in ip from john marshall or depaul.  later i might attempt to start or improve an ip program at a 4th tier school like texas southern.  i feel that my goals are more than attainable.  my career will be both rewarding and meaningful to me, of this i have little doubt.  so what if i am not a mover or a shaker?  i never wanted to be one.  i just wanted to be a lawyer. 

the thing is you make sweeping generalizations about every law student.  you have no idea what their career goals are.  it is possible that their goals are quite modest in comparison to your own.  some may just want to be lawyers.  period.  they don't care if that means they have to chase every ambulance in queens or the bronx.  sure, some will struggle, but many will find success.  it may not be your idea of success but that's you. 

[LoverOfWomen]

movers and shakers?  some just want to be lawyers.  opportunity cost?  many take the full ride at the tier3/4.  penn worthless?  penn is not worthless.  all i was trying to show was that the school does not necessarily make the lawyer.  take myself as an example.  i will be taking the money and going to a low tier2 on a full-ride (good standing).  i want to do ip, not because of the money but because i find it interesting.  i would be more than content with 60k.  i have always wanted to be a lawyer.  i have never qualified my aspiration with the words "rich" or "big-law."  the money is unimportant to me.  all i need is enough to pay off my small student loans.  after working for a number of years i plan to get an llm in ip from john marshall or depaul.  later i might attempt to start or improve an ip program at a 4th tier school like texas southern.  i feel that my goals are more than attainable.  my career will be both rewarding and meaningful to me, of this i have little doubt.  so what if i am not a mover or a shaker?  i never wanted to be one.  i just wanted to be a lawyer. 

the thing is you make sweeping generalizations about every law student.  you have no idea what their career goals are.  it is possible that their goals are quite modest in comparison to your own.  some may just want to be lawyers.  period.  they don't care if that means they have to chase every ambulance in queens or the bronx.  sure, some will struggle, but many will find success.  it may not be your idea of success but that's you. 

You're not counting time as an opportunity cost.  If you earn a full ride at a T3/4, you could have gone to better school with a more challenging program instead of evading it.  What a waste of time and talent.

If you are an unambitious loser who is interested in law, go be a paralegal.  Don't complain about high standards (which is what I am arguing for).  Law should be the purview of movers and shakers, not a clearinghouse for timid milquetoast clerks who just want to live "comfortably."