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Author Topic: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized  (Read 18426 times)

lincolnsgrandson

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2005, 08:39:03 AM »
Onlilne law schools will not be taken seriously.  Absolutely not.  The whole educational atmosphere won't turn into a blogspot.
Lamenting that "brick and mortor" law schools are some throwback to elitism is besides the point.  Success in law is completely based on elitism; prestige of education is completely elitist by nature.  Law school hasn't changed much at all in a hundred years; it can't be expected to undergo any radical changes in the near future.  If it does, law school should be emphasizing more practical hands-on aspects of lawyering. 

Wild Jack Maverick

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2005, 12:55:10 PM »
To paraphrase a popular president...online law schools will not beat the ABA, they will transcend the ABA...they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight.

ah, voss749, I think you have provided the clue. As a matter of fact, I am just reading about monopolies. You have probably heard of the glass ceiling; I have also noticed what seems as "glass walls" when attempting to enter the legal field. Those barriers of entry are a sign of a pure monopoly. My book describes barriers as economic, technological, legal or some other type.

I suppose that DL law schools are considered as a major threat to the monopolistic industry of law, in that they eliminate the barriers!

You are a genius!
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voss749

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #12 on: November 20, 2005, 05:29:01 PM »
To paraphrase a popular president...online law schools will not beat the ABA, they will transcend the ABA...they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight.

Ha!  That's the best laugh I've had all weekend.  Keep telling yourself that.

Why waste my time on the obvious?

The ABA has been against every major innovation in the field of law including the entry of blacks, women, and allowing foreign trained lawyers to sit for the bar exam. The difference is there is more money behind internet commerce than behind the ABA. For the first time...money isnt on the ABA's side

law543

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2005, 08:27:40 PM »
As with all radical changes...the advent of DL law will not be one that will come about easily or one that will be readily accepted by the ABA. After all, they have a vested interest in keeping DL out. Many don't even realize that requiring an undergrad degree in order to attend law school is mostly a recent phenomenon. It was Harvard that eventually set the standard for law school...and is a tradition that continues to this day. The law degree (that later was named the Juris Doctor) used to be a 2-year program that was virtually an undergrad degree by itself and one did not even have to attend a law school to get it.

In all of my dealings with many law students online and otherwise, I've seen virtually no difference in the education. Of course there are differences in the opportunities available...but nobody is denying that. However, for one who goes into DL with their eyes wide open, understanding the career limitations and understanding the prejudices that will be there for them when they exit the other side, degree in hand...and they decide to do it despite all of this because they know why they are doing it...more power to you. :)

Wild Jack Maverick

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #14 on: December 02, 2005, 10:31:24 AM »

In all of my dealings with many law students online and otherwise, I've seen virtually no difference in the education. Of course there are differences in the opportunities available...but nobody is denying that. However, for one who goes into DL with their eyes wide open, understanding the career limitations and understanding the prejudices that will be there for them when they exit the other side, degree in hand...and they decide to do it despite all of this because they know why they are doing it...more power to you. :)

I suppose a student's success would be determined by the type of person he/she really is. I would guess that many of the B.M. (brick and mortar) law students are very social people who could not make it through law school without the social aspect of gathering with other students. The DL law schools are probably not geared for moot court, although the students would have the option of observing at as many actual trials as is convenient.

I would think that there are prejudices no matter what law school a lawyer graduates from. If it is a DL school, it has the DL law school stigma. If it is not a high rated law school, it has the low level law school stigma. If it is a high rated law school, then it is an argument about who went to the better undergrad school, whose scores were better, who had the better professors, which graduating class is better, etc.

It almost seems that unless one student shares a totally identical experience with another student, no one would recognize the qualifications of another as "adequate."
"I enjoy being in school. I've learned so much already, with taking economics and law, and I have marketing and statistics coming up next."

duckasourus

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2006, 07:19:03 PM »
"they will not bother to denounce the ABA instead dismiss it as a bizarre organization whos last days of monopoly are already in sight. "

Um if the aba is soo bad then why are ALL the fake law schools trying to join it.  The truth is internet law schools just want to take the money of the people who were not good enough to get into even the worst aba schools.  They know you have little chance of ever becoming lawyers, as does California which is why they require you to take the baby bar.  Internet classes may become a part of aba schools but never the whole program because the interaction with professors and being actually called on rather than staring at a computer screen are vital to a good legal education.

Wild Jack Maverick

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2006, 07:22:17 AM »
okay, here are some posts written by the experts- "borrowed" from another website:

"First, you need to realize that the admissions process at law schools is more than just competitive, it's corrupt. Law schools, particularly those below the top twenty, are obsessed with rankings. Rankings mean bragging rights to alumni, and that translates into dollars. Dollars mean better salaries, new buildings, etc. The same thing is true everywhere in academia.
Having actively been a member of a law school admissions committee for several years, here's the raw feed:
Look at the US News and World Report rankings. That'll give you the percentile ranks of GPA and LSAT score. You'll see average scores and the 25th and 75th percentile. Are you below the curve? Your odds are 20-1 at schools in the top twenty, and roughly 8-1 at schools ranked 21-100.
That's before you even apply. It's simple math, you've got 2000 people competing for 100 slots. Get ALL the stats on the schools you're looking at from LSAC."

*****

"There are more lawyers than there are entry lawyer jobs. There are more lawyers than there are people looking for lawyers, which is why law firms run ads telling people that "You might have been injured if you took this drug...", and why lawyers sometimes beat emergency personnel to plane wrecks.
Legal associates are expected to work 70 hours per week without any extra pay. A $40K salary for 70 hours per week works out to about $11/hour, which you can earn at WalMart without having paid $20K per year for 3 years for tuition. The high starting salaries that you see in the newspapers are for the top 1% of each year's graduates who land prestige jobs in the big city firms. The other 99% of the graduates fight for maybe 1 real legal job for every 5 graduates, at wages more appropriate to a 40-hour work week. Many lawyers go back to their former non-law careers, try to become paralegals, or start from scratch in new jobs that don't require lawyers.
Associates are bribed into working these absurd hours by vague promises of maybe making partner some day, the same way that multi-level marketers keep selling crap to friends because they think that eventually they will be in the Magic Profit Zone, with many associates below them making money for them the same way the gullible boob is making money for the higher-ups today. Law firms are pyramids, with associates making money for the partners; the partners don't really want to share.
Then there are ethics questions. It's an eye-opener the first time a partner instructs you to betray a client, withhold discoverable material, or move forward with an absurd legal theory. That's why I'm in solo practice now."


Now compare the marginal cost ---various costs of the LSAT, LSAC, applications, cost of seven or more years of college at a brick and mortar college and an ABA law school, housing, transportation, hours spent in classrooms, Bar exams, Performance exams, Character and Fitness interviews, cost of licensing and admittance to the Bar, cost of Continuing Education, costs of renewing licenses and malpractice insurance----with the marginal benefits listed in the above paragraphs. 
Compare the chances of best case scenario---acceptance (5%) graduation, passing the Bar exam (86.6%) admittance to the Bar, and employment with a good law firm with the worst case scenario...by the year 2008, experts expect the market will be flooded with law school grads. What is the purpose of acquiring large amounts of debt to work in an area where there isn't enough employment?

What is the percentage of law school students who graduate? What is the percentage who are admitted to the Bar and enter their chosen field of practice?

Basically, the non-successful lawyer wannabees are the ones paying the way for the successful lawyers' prestigious traditional education. If only the students who later enjoy a successful law career were attending law schools, the law schools probably wouldn't have adequate funding to keep their doors open.

Hence, a sensible person who wants to enjoy the hobby of law, which is perfectly okay, should consider the amount of money he/she is willing to spend for the education.
"I enjoy being in school. I've learned so much already, with taking economics and law, and I have marketing and statistics coming up next."

voice of reason

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2006, 10:10:33 AM »
Jack, thank you for putting some stats to what I have been saying all along.  The law profession is very cutthroat and prestige-oriented, from the cradle (law school admissions) to the grave (making partner).  The legal profession is saturated due to everyone thinking they can do it too, and many lesser ranked schools perpetuate this problem. 

There's no such thing as the "hobby of law".  It's either a profession or its not.  If someone, for reasons I could never understand, wants to take up law as a hobby, don't go to law school.  For one, you are taking up a spot reserved for some other zealot that wanted to be a lawyer since he/she was 11 for a career because you were "curious".  Second, any hobby that requires you to incur ~$100,000 debt with little or no return, and requires you to pay it back in 10 years is a BAD idea.  Third, law can be quite boring sometimes.  Many of those that have dreamed of being a lawyer all their lives find it difficult to wade through some of the subject matter.  It's not for the faint of heart and not for those with a passing interest.  If theres someone out there that wants to learn the law for fun, self-study.  Buy some E&E's, hornbooks, casebooks, whatever.  Knock yourself out.  Save $99,000 and three years of stress.

If law is your dream, then those stats should be a wake up call.  That's a lot of debt to take on for uncertain prospects.  When investing in yourself, you need to think like an economist.  There is an enormous opportunity cost associated with attending law school.  Not only are you spending money like mad on education, you are giving up three years salary in whatever profession you are in or could gain employment in.  That's another $150,000 or more down the drain.  Suddenly, law school doesn't look so good.  Are you in that 1%?  Are you so naive as to think you will be the one to beat all odds and be that one guy that "makes it" from your school?  Is this job worth $250,000 or more to you?  Assuming you can get a lower paying job, do you want to be a slave working at $11/hour trying to pay back your loans for the next 10 years?  These are just a few of the questions a person should ask themselves before throwing themselves down the slippery slope.

If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it.  This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

aloha737pilot

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2006, 07:33:05 AM »
If ever there was a self righteous wind bag, you are it. "If you can't do it my way, or the ABA way, don't do it, you will be wasting your time." So it is said by Duckasouras Jr(Donald Duck voice effect), the equal opportunity specialist formerly known as "Voice of Reason".

Wild Jack Maverick

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Re: My prediction: Online law schools will EVENTUALLY be recognized
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2006, 07:36:20 AM »

If all you can attend is an online law school or any non ABA approved school, forget it.  This has been discussed ad nauseum, no need to rehash.  If all you can attend is a T3/T4, think long and hard before committing yourself.  Know what you are getting yourself into and be honest with yourself.  Consider waiting a year and retaking the LSAT or even waiting three years for your score to be erased and start fresh.  Above this, just concentrate on getting into the best school that you can get into to maximize your chances at making it in a difficult field.  Think long and hard before committing yourself.

I'm not totally against DL law schools (or lower tier law schools). I see a very good purpose for DL law schools. For one, they are accepted in some states, which makes it difficult for those who are accustomed to the ABA requirements of their own states to accept the difference.

Also, for those who want to study law as a hobby or to enhance their non-law career potential, I think DL law schools can provide the structure needed to succeed. The students are not totally on their own as they would be with only self-study. The students are not held to the time constraints of traditional law schools, the cost is much lower, and the DL law schools eliminate the inconvenience of attending a traditional school. There are probably people who would very much appreciate a traditional law education but cannot because of some reason besides the inability of gaining acceptance on the grounds of GPA's and LSAT scores.

As long as those who seriously want or need to practice law as a career understand the necessity of attending an ABA approved traditional law school when required by state laws, there isn't any problem. But for those who do not wish to compete in the field of law as licensed lawyers, or for those whose states accept DL law school education, I think a DL law school education is alright.
"I enjoy being in school. I've learned so much already, with taking economics and law, and I have marketing and statistics coming up next."