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Author Topic: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!  (Read 2321 times)

jewelbomb

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #10 on: August 27, 2005, 07:15:32 PM »
Thanks for the advice - that definitely clears up some questions I had.  I was just getting worried about moving ahead with outlining E&E's too quickly, then having them not match up with the lectures, etc.  But, I think I'll just get started then clean everything up as we go.

I am also frustrated - like someone else mentioned - that some professors are all over the place!  I don't know where the hell to put what they're saying in my outline.  My crim law professor has spent FOUR DAYS discussing with us the question: What is punishment?  Then expounding on all this philosophical garbage.  I seriously haven't taken a class note yet.  And it seems like in the other classes, half the students are asking questions that are not relevant to anything!!!  I don't think many of them are familiar with E&E's yet, or PLS, so they're not looking at the big picture stuff yet.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice - I'd welcome any other suggestions as well. 

Mookie, either you and I are in the same Criminal class, or our situations are uncannily similar. You donít happen to go to school in the great state of Ohio do you?

Anyway, Iím no expert (being a 1L myself) but I too notice that I am taking far less notes than those around me. The prof has lectured almost exclusively on policy up to this point. While I realize that policy analysis can/will be tested on a bit, I am far more concerned with the Black Letter Law. I plan on following my own instincts. Screw what those around me do. Just my thoughts.

jacy85

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #11 on: August 27, 2005, 09:03:03 PM »
I'd go ask a 2 or 3L that had your Crim prof before you start assuming that the black letter law is more important.  I've heard there are professors that are almost strictly policy based in terms of exams, adn you'll end up screwing yourself by not putting the effort into the right place.

_retired_

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #12 on: August 27, 2005, 09:23:12 PM »
ATTN Mac Users:


OMNIOUTLINER


Its in your applications. 

slacker

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2005, 11:26:30 PM »
I'd go ask a 2 or 3L that had your Crim prof before you start assuming that the black letter law is more important.  I've heard there are professors that are almost strictly policy based in terms of exams, adn you'll end up screwing yourself by not putting the effort into the right place.
I was going to say something along these lines. If your professor's lectures are policy-based, there's a good chance that there'll be policy-related issues on the exam. Alternatively, if the exam is mostly black letter law, sometimes you can make yourself stand out by also addressing policy concerns.

So, when it comes to the policy, be sure you have an idea of the rationale that are important to the professor. The idea of a prior year's test, and talking to students who had the professor is also helpful.

Finally, the teacher has most likely handed you a syllabus of the material the course will be covering. Often you can use this as a basis for the outline structure, since it's already presenting the information as the professor sees it.

phalos

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #14 on: August 28, 2005, 02:13:59 AM »
Using the syllabus as a model always helped me out in undergrad, I'm going to keep trying it out here.

And I second what others have been saying: whatever the prof says in class is what's important--at least in terms of the test. No one babbles on and on about a thing without considering that thing important.

jewelbomb

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2005, 08:55:22 AM »
I'd go ask a 2 or 3L that had your Crim prof before you start assuming that the black letter law is more important.  I've heard there are professors that are almost strictly policy based in terms of exams, adn you'll end up screwing yourself by not putting the effort into the right place.

Thatís a good point. So this may be a stupid question, but how do you test policy on a typical issue-spotter exam? I can imagine writing answers where policy kinda creeps in to my analysis, but what would an exam that was policy-based look like? In any case, Iíll look for some old exams to get a better idea of how my Prof tests.

dft

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2005, 10:20:41 AM »
On a typical issue-spotting hypothetical exam, policy will (from what I understand) come into play after the BLL, to help resolve the issues. That is, if the issue is a "close-call," then you can use policy as a "tie-breaker."

It's unlikely that the entire exam will be policy. It's more likely that the majority of the exam will be issue-spotter/s with one or two policy questions. But (if you do have a strictly policy-based question), there is a systematic approach to take towards that as well. I would suggest doing LEEWS -- it explains this further in depth.

Thatís a good point. So this may be a stupid question, but how do you test policy on a typical issue-spotter exam? I can imagine writing answers where policy kinda creeps in to my analysis, but what would an exam that was policy-based look like? In any case, Iíll look for some old exams to get a better idea of how my Prof tests.

dft

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2005, 10:25:25 AM »
I am also frustrated - like someone else mentioned - that some professors are all over the place!  I don't know where the hell to put what they're saying in my outline.  My crim law professor has spent FOUR DAYS discussing with us the question: What is punishment?  Then expounding on all this philosophical garbage.  I seriously haven't taken a class note yet. 

That doesn't really sound that unusual at all. Most of my classes have been a lot of policy as well, at least for the first few days. Also, the jurisprudential/philosophical theories  on punishment (i.e. deterrence, retribution, and rehabiliation)are considered pretty important in Criminal Law -- they help to give you a framework for understanding why courts come to their decisions.

I have the same feeling though -- that when a prof lectures on policy that it is just BS. It feels like this is the point in the lecture when you can just sort of relax and start daydreaming or something. I have been trying to resist that temptation though...

JG

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2005, 11:38:16 AM »
I'd advise asking your professors what they want you to do with policy on the exam--it may vary widely.  My torts and property professors last year both talked a lot about policy.  When asked, my torts professor basically said that she wasn't looking for policy rationales when she graded exams.  On the other hand, my property professor told us when asked that one of the three questions on the exam would be entirely about policy. (The question ended up being something like, "Discuss the role of 'first in time' as a principle in the development of property law.")  I largely ignored policy discussions in torts but paid close attention to policy stuff in property, and it worked out for me.

istically

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Re: What's the deal with...OUTLINING?!
« Reply #19 on: September 06, 2005, 06:28:27 PM »
Quote
I'd advise asking your professors what they want you to do with policy on the exam--it may vary widely.

And it does vary widely!