Law School Discussion

LSAT scores in regard to transferring

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #20 on: February 18, 2006, 11:52:12 AM »
Quote
I'd be suprised if most T2s dip below 160.

Some of them do if you have a stellar undergrad GPA. Not to mention affirmative action admissions.

Well, I guess, these black, Latino or Asian students with lower GPAs and LSATs will fail later on in these schools when measured up against white, majority peers.

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #21 on: February 18, 2006, 12:33:54 PM »

Well, I guess, these black, Latino or Asian students with lower GPAs and LSATs will fail later on in these schools when measured up against white, majority peers.

I'm not saying that that's necessarily what you assumed, erstes, but if you did, I'd like to remind you that the minority students fail not because they are really "low-quality" and they were admitted to those schools under affirmative action admission programs, not beacuse they deserved it. When law schools admitted these minority students they were simply recognizing the fact that the latter had been discriminated against in the undergraduate schools, as well as when taking the highly-discriminatory LSAT; by admitting these as-good-as-majority minority students with slightly lower scores they were simply adjusting for the results of that discrimination.

However, when law schools themselves engage in discrimination towards such students later on during the course of their studies in law school, they destroy -- not unintentionally -- what they accomplished via their admission practices. Again, this goes to show that affirmative action admissions are just a political tool to give the impression that law schools are not discriminating against minorities in their admission practices, while sophistically "proving" in the long run that, after all, minorities simply can not measure up with their peers even if they are given the chance.

Budlaw

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Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2006, 09:54:17 PM »
I'm sorry, but can you please explain to me how an inanimant object, such as a test, can discriminate against someone? I mean aren't we all humans? Do the answers change just because one test taker is white, or one test taker is black? Isn't it the same answer no matter who is taking the test? Oh that's right, the LSAT was designed by white supremecists....




Well, I guess, these black, Latino or Asian students with lower GPAs and LSATs will fail later on in these schools when measured up against white, majority peers.

I'm not saying that that's necessarily what you assumed, erstes, but if you did, I'd like to remind you that the minority students fail not because they are really "low-quality" and they were admitted to those schools under affirmative action admission programs, not beacuse they deserved it. When law schools admitted these minority students they were simply recognizing the fact that the latter had been discriminated against in the undergraduate schools, as well as when taking the highly-discriminatory LSAT; by admitting these as-good-as-majority minority students with slightly lower scores they were simply adjusting for the results of that discrimination.

However, when law schools themselves engage in discrimination towards such students later on during the course of their studies in law school, they destroy -- not unintentionally -- what they accomplished via their admission practices. Again, this goes to show that affirmative action admissions are just a political tool to give the impression that law schools are not discriminating against minorities in their admission practices, while sophistically "proving" in the long run that, after all, minorities simply can not measure up with their peers even if they are given the chance.

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2006, 07:41:25 PM »
I was asked on one of my ls apps about whether I felt that the LSAT was biased against/towards me. I flat out said no. I did not do so hot on the exam, but I felt that it was because I just didn't put in that extra effort that might have given me a better grade. I don't think that the LSAT was created by white supremacists. But you have to go past the test alone if you want to look at where minorities are disadvantaged. I grew up in Brooklyn, I went to public schools that were and still are horrendous (I know because I worked in a Bronx HS last year). Overcrowding, lack of books (this is not an exagerration), teahers who can't teach because of disciplinary problems with a handful of students. It makes a difference. I would love to go to a public elementary school in the a middle class part of connecticut and see what kind of situation that school is in in comparison. I'm not going to get into the history  of discrimination against minorities in education and in the workforce and in society in genereal. It's not really necessary. I look at it this way. All kids are supposed to start from the same place right. That's what people expect, and if everyone starts from the same place in life, then there will be no need for a "hand up". It is clear, however that everyone does not start from the same place in life, so I support trying to level the field. I wish they would do it through the educational system starting from elementary school, but since that's not likely, we have to do it through programs like AA. sorry if it makes you feel angry, but imagine how we felt when in the past we couldn't get any chances at all NO MATTER HOW GOOD WE WERE.     

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2006, 03:26:32 PM »
Quote
Do the answers change just because one test taker is white, or one test taker is black?


Yes.

Quote
Isn't it the same answer no matter who is taking the test?

No.

Quote
Oh that's right, the LSAT was designed by white supremecists....

You bet!

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2006, 04:54:37 PM »
anyone here transfer within the t20? specifically, did anyone transfer to ucla / berkeley [im at a t20 on the east coast and want to go back to cali]

when do you do your transfer app? what is involved? is it the first sem. gpa or 1L gpa? do you have to get lettesr of rec and write a PS and jump throuhg all of those BS hoops again?

aaa

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2006, 08:17:25 PM »

I'm not saying that that's necessarily what you assumed, erstes, but if you did, I'd like to remind you that the minority students fail not because they are really "low-quality" and they were admitted to those schools under affirmative action admission programs, not beacuse they deserved it. When law schools admitted these minority students they were simply recognizing the fact that the latter had been discriminated against in the undergraduate schools, as well as when taking the highly-discriminatory LSAT; by admitting these as-good-as-majority minority students with slightly lower scores they were simply adjusting for the results of that discrimination.

However, when law schools themselves engage in discrimination towards such students later on during the course of their studies in law school, they destroy -- not unintentionally -- what they accomplished via their admission practices. Again, this goes to show that affirmative action admissions are just a political tool to give the impression that law schools are not discriminating against minorities in their admission practices, while sophistically "proving" in the long run that, after all, minorities simply can not measure up with their peers even if they are given the chance.

As enrollment in the nation's law schools grows, black enrollment has declined. In response, the American Bar Association's legal-education committee, which accredits law schools, voted this weekend to monitor law school admissions of minorities more closely. From 1995 to 2005, while enrollment among whites gained by 6%, the number of black law students decreased by about 2%, according to the ABA. The number of black applicants to law schools for entry this year dropped 8% after a 6% decline last year. "It is harder now for blacks to get into the profession," says Leonard Baynes, a professor at St. John's University School of Law in New York.

In 2003, in Grutter v. Bollinger, the U.S. Supreme Court endorsed affirmative action in law-school admissions. "With Grutter, I thought schools would have aggressively pursued diversity, but just the opposite has happened," says Vernellia Randall, a professor at the University of Dayton School of Law in Dayton, Ohio. A study due out next month by St. John's blames declining black enrollment on a magazine: U.S. News & World Report. The magazine's annual law school rankings are based in part on schools' median LSAT scores. As schools try to improve their rankings, they are admitting fewer black students because blacks score, on average, significantly lower than whites on the LSAT, according to the St. John's study. John Nussbaumer, author of the St. John's study, says the emphasis on test scores is about "old-fashioned race discrimination." Some legal academics say they believe that the racial disparity in LSAT scores occurs because blacks and other minorities are less apt to take pricey LSAT preparatory courses or, perhaps, to realize the test's importance for getting admitted to law school. "U.S. News did not make the LSAT a requirement for admission to law schools," says Robert Morse, who oversees the magazine's law-school rankings. The Law School Admission Council, which administers the LSAT, "takes extraordinary steps to make sure we don't have racial insensitivity in the content of the exam," says Philip Shelton, president of the LSAC.

The American Bar Association's legal-education committee didn't address schools' reliance on the LSAT when it voted to strengthen its long-standing requirement that law schools show a "commitment" to diversity. Previously, ABA rules measured a school's commitment by its efforts to recruit a diverse student body. Now, according to the proposed rule changes, the ABA also will measure schools' diversity commitment by these schools' success in admitting minority students. "This makes it clear that [admissions] results are relevant," says John Sebert, who oversees the committee's main function: accrediting law schools. In a majority of states, a person can't become a licensed attorney without graduating from an ABA-accredited law school. The new diversity standard will become binding if it is approved by the ABA's House of Delegates at its annual meeting in August. Committee members say the House of Delegates has never rejected the legal-education committee's recommendations.

Some legal scholars say the ABA should focus more on a school's diversity efforts, not the results achieved. One academic, for example, says it is not up to schools whether admissions offers will be accepted. W.H. "Joe" Knight Jr., dean of the University of Washington School of Law, says his school made offers to 38 African-Americans last year -- a sizable number given the school's 180-student class size. All but three decided on other schools, many of which offered more financial aid. Some practicing lawyers applaud the ABA's proposed rules, hoping they will encourage schools to enroll more minorities. In recent years, law firms have stepped up recruitment of minorities as more companies insist on being represented by a diverse group of lawyers. "It has become extremely competitive to recruit the best minority students," says Lee Miller, co-chief executive of DLA Piper Rudnick Gray Cary LLP's Chicago office.

Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2006, 06:53:30 AM »
I'm sorry, but can you please explain to me how an inanimant object, such as a test, can discriminate against someone? I mean aren't we all humans? Do the answers change just because one test taker is white, or one test taker is black? Isn't it the same answer no matter who is taking the test? Oh that's right, the LSAT was designed by white supremecists....



[...] When law schools admitted these minority students they were simply recognizing the fact that the latter had been discriminated against in the undergraduate schools, as well as when taking the highly-discriminatory LSAT [...]


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Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #28 on: March 20, 2006, 09:34:49 PM »
A very interesting thread!

Erapitt

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Re: LSAT scores in regard to transferring
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2006, 06:01:16 AM »
My only advice for you is to do very well your first year at Cooley and then anything is possible.  If you're top 5% at any school a T-1 (excluding certain schools such as Harvard or Yale) will recognize that you're just as capable of performing well at their school.

That is sooo far from truth.  Top 5% or not, Georgetown Law, any other T14, or any T20-25, likely will not even consider a Cooley student.