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Author Topic: Affirmative Action is for people not smart enough to get in without it  (Read 22017 times)

Dano

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Re: Affirmative Action is for people not smart enough to get in without it
« Reply #60 on: March 31, 2005, 05:43:42 PM »
There are plenty of super-racist Blacks and Hispanics as well.  I've run into quite a few.  Racism cuts many ways ... all the wrong way.

--I wonder why they are super racist??? 

Because they are ignorant bigots.  Maybe they think that all white people have screwed them somehow and they are going to get ahead by hating all of them.  A similar pattern occurs with all racists.

--If you have no qualms, please don't generalize about Black and Latino people. I agree that there are plenty of URMs who are against AA, but like I will always say it comes in many forms so if people are that ignorant to beleive that someone is where they are because of AA with no facts to base it on, then let them stay ignorant. The world will keep passing them by. I do think that as the gap in education and opportunity closes we will get closer to an end of AA. But you have to admit that AA's intentions were never to reverse discriminate or to give preferential treatment.

AA (particularly as it relates to law school entrance) is implicitly discriminatory.  Not seeing that was a major oversight.  I believe that the educational gap has been closed (or at least access to it).  There are also major cultural reasons for certain groups remaining behind in these areas.  AA will never change that.  Poverty is the primary reason for deficiencies in these areas anyway.  Yet, AA (as it is practiced) does not focus on  socioeconomic factors.  Race is the primary factor.  That is where we primarily disagree.

As for your comment on Black and the internet again, There is a significantly smaller number of Black people in the US and an even smaller amount who use the internet. FIne. But to say that the fact that half of Black people use the internet than white people still does not make LSN an accurate depiction of the pool of Black applicants for law school, let alone all applicants, and thus boggles my mind that you find that data compelling. There is no correlation between the use of the internet and the accuracy of LSN. Some guy started LSN so people could have a place to compare and contrast their #'s stats, etc. I am 100% certain that he doesn't run background checks to validate all users. Even some of the non URM iusers of LSN alter or withold information about themselves. But if you feel that Black people are accurately depicted by LSN, keep on beleiving that. But do remember that there are so many unclassified and incorrectly classified people on LSN.

Again, we will have to disagree on this.  I think LSN is a useful tool and see no reason for people in general to materially misrepresent their numbers.  Maybe change them slightly so that adcoms cannot guess who they are, but overall I believe the numbers stated on the site are probably reasonably accurate.  Even small attempts at transparency is a good thing.

I am equally against nepotism (except for family businesses where it makes sense) as I am against AA.

--Well Dano, nice to know we agree on something ;)

I truly enjoy this debate and I definitely hope you're not getting all fired up about it. I respect your opinions and I appreciate your rebuttal skills. You will make a fine lawyer Dano!!

Likewise.  We seem to agree on where we want to end up.  It is the methodology of AA and the vicious circle it creates that I dislike.

angmill08

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Re: Affirmative Action is for...
« Reply #61 on: March 31, 2005, 11:48:35 PM »
I believe that the educational gap has been closed (or at least access to it).  There are also major cultural reasons for certain groups remaining behind in these areas.  AA will never change that.  Poverty is the primary reason for deficiencies in these areas anyway.  Yet, AA (as it is practiced) does not focus on  socioeconomic factors.  Race is the primary factor.  That is where we primarily disagree.

But racism, past and present, is the primary reason for the high poverty rate among blacks & Native Americans. And racism & the attending poverty is a major force in creating the culture of undervaluing education.

There are many good reasons to criticize AA. But saying that racism doesn't exist anymore or that the playing field is already level aren't good reasons because they are false statements.
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Applied: UT Austin (ED), Univ. of Houston, George Washington U & American U.
Accepted: Univ. of Houston, GW, American
Attending: GW, Fall 2006

Dano

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Re: Affirmative Action is for...
« Reply #62 on: April 01, 2005, 12:30:32 AM »
I believe that the educational gap has been closed (or at least access to it).  There are also major cultural reasons for certain groups remaining behind in these areas.  AA will never change that.  Poverty is the primary reason for deficiencies in these areas anyway.  Yet, AA (as it is practiced) does not focus on  socioeconomic factors.  Race is the primary factor.  That is where we primarily disagree.

But racism, past and present, is the primary reason for the high poverty rate among blacks & Native Americans. And racism & the attending poverty is a major force in creating the culture of undervaluing education.

There are many good reasons to criticize AA. But saying that racism doesn't exist anymore or that the playing field is already level aren't good reasons because they are false statements.

As long as you believe that racism is the primary problem, the poverty will continue. 

Many whites are poor as well.  Did they get that way due to racism?  What about a lack of fathers in the household and an overblown fascination with singers and sports stars?  Is that due to racism as well?  How about illegal immigrants taking the decent blue collar jobs and depressing wages?  Is that due to racism as well?  I would venture that these factors have a far greater impact on poverty than any racism.  I would rather see efforts to fix those problems, which will have an impact beyond the lucky few that benefit from AA.

BTW, will you provide some specific examples of racism you have encountered that have prevented you from obtaining a decent education or job?  Did someone bar you from attending school or specifically exclude you from a position solely based on your race?  If so, has it been so prevalent to prevent you from obtaining your goals?

angmill08

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Re: Affirmative Action is for...
« Reply #63 on: April 01, 2005, 03:30:36 AM »
Many whites are poor as well.  Did they get that way due to racism?  What about a lack of fathers in the household and an overblown fascination with singers and sports stars?  Is that due to racism as well?  How about illegal immigrants taking the decent blue collar jobs and depressing wages?  Is that due to racism as well?  I would venture that these factors have a far greater impact on poverty than any racism.  I would rather see efforts to fix those problems, which will have an impact beyond the lucky few that benefit from AA.

BTW, will you provide some specific examples of racism you have encountered that have prevented you from obtaining a decent education or job?  Did someone bar you from attending school or specifically exclude you from a position solely based on your race?  If so, has it been so prevalent to prevent you from obtaining your goals?


Of course not everyone who is poor is poor because of racism. But I think the disproportionate amount of non-whites living below the poverty level is due to racism, past and present.

The substandard public services -- including public schools -- in most majority-minority neighborhoods help create an environment where many kids are discouraged from obtaining a decent education, which leads to fewer job prospects. Racism today is more subtle than "whites only" water fountains, or KKK members blocking access to schools, but the effects of that type of racism still exist. Additionally, a more subtle racism perpetuates our highly segregated neighborhoods, schools, and public life.

And I do think that the concentration of single parent families and a fascination with sports stars in majority-minority neighborhoods is related to the history of racism. My friend teaches at an inner city high school, and a suprising number of her students cite becoming a rapper as their main career goal. They honestly think they are more likely to suceed as a rapper than as a lawyer. This is due to short-sightedness, yes, but also cultural conditioning & role modeling, which are shaped by... yes, racism. The effects of racism are complex, and differ from person to person. Racism is not the only factor that shapes anyone's life. But it exists, especially visibly for people in majority-minority neighborhoods.

I'm surprised that we can't agree on that.
164/3.46 Undergrad GPA, graduated college in 1996.
Applied: UT Austin (ED), Univ. of Houston, George Washington U & American U.
Accepted: Univ. of Houston, GW, American
Attending: GW, Fall 2006

PreProfessional

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Re: Affirmative Action is for people not smart enough to get in without it
« Reply #64 on: April 02, 2005, 11:01:18 PM »
That is a very pesimistic intrepretation of what Affirmative Action  !  >:( 1) In order to even apply to law school you have to take the lsat. This means at the very least that have fuflilled the 1st requirement. 2) Affrmative Action is a preventative tatic. It says that hey, dont skip over this person because they are of a particular race,gender, or class. Does it have problems, yes...what doesn't? Dont know if you have ever taken an American History class but there was this whole period in the beginning of this country where they treated anyone not 100% white was considered to be 2/3 human, or better stated as property. There are lasting effects of that behavior and Affirmative Action just allows more minorites to be considered. http:// I encourage you to seek out minorites and talk to them. What you will find is alot of people who are sitll displeased with the current system and want more but will admit that it has helped.   


Should I really feel sorry for you because you're an URM? Honestly. You have the same brain as anybody else don't you? Or are you admitting you're not as good? AA hurts applicants because in reality it's saying "you're black/hispanic/poor/etc therefore you need this little boost in order to get in." Not to mention the fact that for every person who gets in undeservingly from AA, there is another person who deserved it more who was denied in order to make room for you.

If I were black, I would hate AA more than I already do.

The Federal Farmer

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Re: Affirmative Action is for people not smart enough to get in without it
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2005, 11:38:41 PM »
What past inequalities or disadvantage is AA really trying to remedy?  Bringing people for a third world uncivilized nation like Africa to the the United States?  Trying to teach them skills and a valuable trade.  The importance of a solid work ethic?  If anything the United States should be receiving something in return for going out of their way to help the less fortunate.

_BP_

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Re: Affirmative Action is for people not smart enough to get in without it
« Reply #66 on: April 04, 2005, 01:00:45 AM »
What past inequalities or disadvantage is AA really trying to remedy?  Bringing people for a third world uncivilized nation like Africa to the the United States?  Trying to teach them skills and a valuable trade.  The importance of a solid work ethic?  If anything the United States should be receiving something in return for going out of their way to help the less fortunate.

Hahahahaha....this is some classic sh*t.

I will personally say "f*ck off" to the next person that posts on this or any other A.A thread.....
The oracle has spoken.
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Dano

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Re: Affirmative Action is for...
« Reply #67 on: April 04, 2005, 03:27:57 AM »
Of course not everyone who is poor is poor because of racism. But I think the disproportionate amount of non-whites living below the poverty level is due to racism, past and present.

The substandard public services -- including public schools -- in most majority-minority neighborhoods help create an environment where many kids are discouraged from obtaining a decent education, which leads to fewer job prospects. Racism today is more subtle than "whites only" water fountains, or KKK members blocking access to schools, but the effects of that type of racism still exist. Additionally, a more subtle racism perpetuates our highly segregated neighborhoods, schools, and public life.

And I do think that the concentration of single parent families and a fascination with sports stars in majority-minority neighborhoods is related to the history of racism. My friend teaches at an inner city high school, and a suprising number of her students cite becoming a rapper as their main career goal. They honestly think they are more likely to suceed as a rapper than as a lawyer. This is due to short-sightedness, yes, but also cultural conditioning & role modeling, which are shaped by... yes, racism. The effects of racism are complex, and differ from person to person. Racism is not the only factor that shapes anyone's life. But it exists, especially visibly for people in majority-minority neighborhoods.

I'm surprised that we can't agree on that.


I agree that racism EXISTS, but I disagree that it is currently the primary source of the educational and economic issues facing many minority communities.

Also, I was not just referring to URM's when I talked about the cultural problem(s).  Poor whites are also likely to have unrealistic dreams of being singers and/or sports stars along with a higher incidence of single parenthood.  My point is that poverty strikes hard across all races resulting in similar problems.  This is why I doubt that racism is a large part of the problem.

You bring up a good point regarding inferior schools in poor neighborhoods.  I think that is largely true.  This is typically caused by the best teachers and administrators obtaining positions in the best neighborhoods.  However, that alone is not enough to discourage kids from trying to succeed.  BTW, rural redneck schools in the South and elsewhere are equally deplorable. 

The cultural conditioning and lack of decent role models is largely determined by the minority communities themselves.  Rappers, ball players, performers, and others have millions of dollars and a chance to send the RIGHT message.  Many choose not to do that.  I keep hearing the excuse "It is a representation of our inner city communities ... A reflection of our current culture".  Why do the youth need to mirror what they see every day?  Shootings, drugs, domestic violence, etc..  Look out the freaking window!  Why don't the rich performers use their millions to introduce more positive messages about overcoming such obstacles instead of reveling in them?  It doesn't take a genius IQ to figure out that the messages being sent are harmful to their communities.  The degradation of women is absolutely appalling in many of the music videos.  The extreme focus on flashy cars and clothes is also damaging to their target audience which consists of many poor kids that will destroy their financial futures trying to "keep up with the Rappers".

A fresh approach is needed.  The focus on racism is just not working.

_BP_

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Re: Affirmative Action is for...
« Reply #68 on: April 04, 2005, 10:05:27 AM »
Of course not everyone who is poor is poor because of racism. But I think the disproportionate amount of non-whites living below the poverty level is due to racism, past and present.

The substandard public services -- including public schools -- in most majority-minority neighborhoods help create an environment where many kids are discouraged from obtaining a decent education, which leads to fewer job prospects. Racism today is more subtle than "whites only" water fountains, or KKK members blocking access to schools, but the effects of that type of racism still exist. Additionally, a more subtle racism perpetuates our highly segregated neighborhoods, schools, and public life.

And I do think that the concentration of single parent families and a fascination with sports stars in majority-minority neighborhoods is related to the history of racism. My friend teaches at an inner city high school, and a suprising number of her students cite becoming a rapper as their main career goal. They honestly think they are more likely to suceed as a rapper than as a lawyer. This is due to short-sightedness, yes, but also cultural conditioning & role modeling, which are shaped by... yes, racism. The effects of racism are complex, and differ from person to person. Racism is not the only factor that shapes anyone's life. But it exists, especially visibly for people in majority-minority neighborhoods.

I'm surprised that we can't agree on that.


I agree that racism EXISTS, but I disagree that it is currently the primary source of the educational and economic issues facing many minority communities.

Also, I was not just referring to URM's when I talked about the cultural problem(s).  Poor whites are also likely to have unrealistic dreams of being singers and/or sports stars along with a higher incidence of single parenthood.  My point is that poverty strikes hard across all races resulting in similar problems.  This is why I doubt that racism is a large part of the problem.

You bring up a good point regarding inferior schools in poor neighborhoods.  I think that is largely true.  This is typically caused by the best teachers and administrators obtaining positions in the best neighborhoods.  However, that alone is not enough to discourage kids from trying to succeed.  BTW, rural redneck schools in the South and elsewhere are equally deplorable. 

The cultural conditioning and lack of decent role models is largely determined by the minority communities themselves.  Rappers, ball players, performers, and others have millions of dollars and a chance to send the RIGHT message.  Many choose not to do that.  I keep hearing the excuse "It is a representation of our inner city communities ... A reflection of our current culture".  Why do the youth need to mirror what they see every day?  Shootings, drugs, domestic violence, etc..  Look out the freaking window!  Why don't the rich performers use their millions to introduce more positive messages about overcoming such obstacles instead of reveling in them?  It doesn't take a genius IQ to figure out that the messages being sent are harmful to their communities.  The degradation of women is absolutely appalling in many of the music videos.  The extreme focus on flashy cars and clothes is also damaging to their target audience which consists of many poor kids that will destroy their financial futures trying to "keep up with the Rappers".

A fresh approach is needed.  The focus on racism is just not working.

First off, F*ck off Dano..nothing personal, I just said I would do it.

So you doubt racism is a large part of the problem right?  What a surprise!   It always amuses me when white people try to diminish the scourge of racism and its effects.  How they speak with such authority on something they read about in text books, and discount the reports from people who actually live it.   It would be like me shooting you in the knee with a shotgun and then saying 20 years later,  “well, I shot him 20 years ago, there’s no way Dano’s knee could still be hurting him… if he had taken better care of his body, he wouldn’t be walking with a limp!”
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DJ-C

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Re: Affirmative Action is for people not smart enough to get in without it
« Reply #69 on: April 04, 2005, 02:13:19 PM »
Dano is money.  It is peculiar that people automatically discount the opinions of white people when discussing racial issues, as if they are obviously biased and incapable of looking at a situation involving race objectively.