are there any URMs that think AA is TOO helpful in admissions process?

[angmill08]

I know this is pretty far off from AA, but CheezWiz's points got me thinking...  I believe that many parents in my neighborhood pass on the idea to their kids that studying isn't the most important thing, that working hard won't always get you ahead, and that you can't really be anything you want. Basically, that the American dream is a crock. I think that this is something many of them learned from their own parents, and when I look at the limits of education and job options for African Americans 50 years ago, I can understand why they formulated this opinion.

But today, many leaders inside the Black community fight against this idea. I have heard it called "mental slavery." There are 3 organizations in my neighborhood (a teenage mother's house, a community garden and a drug rehab center) that, without denying the legacy of racism, try to push people to take responsibility for their actions and encourage that leap of faith to the idea that a better life is possible. All three limp along on volunteer organization, funded by community donations.

I think punishing children for the mistakes of their parents is morally wrong, and bad public policy. I think instead, we, as a society, should dedicate more resources to studying the effectiveness of various interventions to improve school performance and encourage people out of a cycle of poverty. Then we should dedicate adequate resources to funding programs that implement these interventions sucessfully. I bet that in the long run, this will be less expensive, financially and psychically, than our current system of ghettos, black market crime and prisons.

Telling people, "you made a critical life error which has condemned yourself and your children to poverty, inadequate education, and after that, minimal job options" is bad public policy, to say the least.

 

[dbgirl]

There is a HUGE difference between rich public schools and poor public schools, even in the same geographical regions.
Rich public schools frankly hold people to higher standards, teach harder subjects and foster an environment of success.
For instance in some public schools children are shaped from the time they are little to think about what college they will attend. Achieving high test scores is a strong emphasis in these schools and teachers will be fired if their kids don't measure up.

And Ninja I know many people who have tutors for their children and send their children to private lessons, etc., etc.

Additionally the rich public schools generally have more parent volunteers and better fundraising, which also makes a difference in the quality of education.

I agree that everyone should try to succeed and rise above his or her circumstances. I think people who don't go to college and blame it on their parents or their culture or their community are LAME. However, it is waaaaaaaaaaaaay harder for some people to graduate from college and succeed than it is for others.

I analogy I thought up: If two people are in a race and one is shackled with ankleweights, that person can finish, heck they might even finish ahead of the unweighted person, but it's going to be far more difficult to do so.

[neci]

"It would seem obvious to anyone that education "should" be valued because that's almost the only way to get a decent job and be paid well."


When one is educated or aware of a situation...it is unbelievable what it easy.

When you are on the opposite end of the spectrum (not aware, uninformed, or uneducated), it is unbelievable what is hard or difficult.


Sometimes to get a full perspective of things, we need to push ourselves to imagine if we do not know something, how hard it  may be.

[rohan]

I've seen several arguments on this board that seem to exaggerate the privilege of not being poor.  Tutors, private schools, prep classes are just some examples.  I always thought my family was fairly well off, so I'm surprised I didn't receive all these bonuses.  I'm wondering how many people out there actually led this life of privilege.

And I've seen several arguments on this board that seem to underestimate the effects of being poor.  It's hard to focus on buying glue and paper machee (sp) for that science project when you are eating cereal for dinner.  Actually it's hard to even be assigned that science project when there is only one book for every three children. Some of you guys have absolutely no idea what inner city life can be like, and I can't blame you for that, but sometimes the harsh judgements that are passed on certain communities ignore the effects of the real-life harsh realities faced by members of those communities.

[shiveringjenny]

I've seen several arguments on this board that seem to exaggerate the privilege of not being poor.  Tutors, private schools, prep classes are just some examples.  I always thought my family was fairly well off, so I'm surprised I didn't receive all these bonuses.  I'm wondering how many people out there actually led this life of privilege.

And I've seen several arguments on this board that seem to underestimate the effects of being poor. It's hard to focus on buying glue and paper machee (sp) for that science project when you are eating cereal for dinner. Actually it's hard to even be assigned that science project when there is only one book for every three children. Some of you guys have absolutely no idea what inner city life can be like, and I can't blame you for that, but sometimes the harsh judgements that are passed on certain communities ignore the effects of the real-life harsh realities faced by members of those communities.

while i agree with your assessment, bp (i've been poor and i know what that *&^% is like),i feel that it is kind of tangential to the original point of this thread. there is a false dichotomy being presented in most of these posts about poor URMs vs. rich white guys. it is an indisputable fact that most of the URMs who go on to higher education aren't living in the ghetto (although it would be nice if ghetto/barrio dwellers were shooting for law school or what have you). despite the lack of wealth of URM's vs white people of similar income, most of the URMs i know are relatively well-off. there is a huge black middle class, for example, and URM members of the middle and upper classes have minimal reason for not doing as well as, say, white/asian kids who come from poor households (which they generally don't, as evidenced by test scores/grades).
i daresay that this is much more of a cultural issue than an economic one. i don't know what the solution to this problem is, but i feel that the current incarnation of AA ain't it.

[Alamss]

totally agree with the distinction jlf makes, which really seems to be out the door in these argumentations. Everybody seems to be discussing on bipolarity.

[ryanjm]

And we've come full circle to: There are problems, it sucks for those with those problems, and we have no good solution, although AA isn't it

[shiveringjenny]

And we've come full circle to: There are problems, it sucks for those with those problems, and we have no good solution, although AA isn't it

that, i think, sums it up nicely.

[iwantin]

Poverty is MAJOR...and race should be MAJOR.  My parents don't have "old money."  Neither of them went to college.  (And yes, your parents' education has something to do with YOUR education.)  Middle class does not even begin to relate to poverty.  Try going to school without taking a shower because you don't have enough money to pay the bill.  (It sucks!) 

Almost didn't take the LSAT because I couldn't afford it.  (And yes I AM in college; I received scholarships and loans.)  I received fee waivers for the test and ALL of my application fees.  Unlike most people at my university, I don't really have a lot to go home to.  And I don't have much to help me through law school.  (Don't try to make it seem like you'll be getting absolutely NO aid from your parents.)  However, I've proven that if given the opportunity, I can excel.  (That's why it's not all about numbers.)  Is a 4.0 coming from a student with a middle class background the same as a 3.7 coming from a student who has lived in poverty? NO.  (And if you think it is, you're lying to yourself.)

[billyflynn]

Although I feel the way AA is currently implemented is illogical and irrational, I do take comfort in knowing it exists. Why?  Because I know that when a black person is working at a company, hits that glass ceiling, or is turned down from a job because is/her name is too "black", or whenever a white person gets an advantage in society simply because of his/her skin color, none of them are going to turn down their advantages/privileges.