are there any URMs that think AA is TOO helpful in admissions process?

[TBoneUCLA]

hey all,

i know as i white kid i tread on thin ice by asking these questions, but whenever these debates are launched on talk shows, they often have a representative URM saying they feel too much of a helping hand is given to URMs in situations like law school admissions, job searches and all that.

what does this thread think?

what about "URMs" that came from wealthy, educated families and were bred to go to college and law school? how does this thread feel about those applicants getting the helping hand they may be recieving for being a URM?

is AA in this situation (law school applications) to ensure diversity in the law school atmosphere, or is it truly a "helping hand" for those that need the boost in thier professional life?

as a gay man i see no box to check in applications, and i can assure all that being gay certaily does cramp ones style in the professional world, in similar ways as does being a URM. many, if not most gay proffesionals i know keep thier sexuality under wraps at the work place (no pictures of the hubby at the desk, etc) for fear of thier good standing at work. i would say that is equally as challenging as facing racism/sexism in the work force...

and though gay my not be underrepresented in some law schools (in others though it for SURE IS underrepresented), i most certainly think it qualifies as minority. but we, as a group, do not recieve that special box in applications.

***i have no agenda in starting this thread. i think these are worthy topics to discuss, and this is the perfect forum to discuss them in what i hope will be an intelligent, tasteful and respectful way. if you dont have a worthwhile and beneficial comment, please refrain from posting. thanks everyone!

[CheezWiz]

The "gay box" is on LSAC.  There is an entire section of the site devoted to connecting GLBT persons with schools that wish to attract them.  GLBT applicants can even self identify as such by checking "I self identify as gay, lesbian, bisexual, or transgendered"  on the CRS profile site.  CRS being the program that law schools use to recruit applicants they want.  Plus, I have seen many law school websites that have sections for GLBT prospects. 

Even more, just becasue the application doesn't have a box does not mean you can't send a statement of diversity.

[TBoneUCLA]

In addition, I thought you wanted everyone to stay out of your bedroom.  Isn't that what you say is the only difference between you and a straight person?  If that's the case, you can't have it both ways.

ah, gotta love the hate, dont ya?

lawlawland said she had friends that would want to have "anal intercourse" with me. i very politly (as i am sure you remember) said that that was rude of her to say things that were so graphic on a public forum. and i certainly dont remember saying anything anywhere close to "that is the only difference between me an a straight man" never said anything near to that. please dont make things up.
saying i dont want people to discuss on a public forum who they know that might wanna have sex with me, doesn't mean that i wouldn't want an employer, say, to know that i was gay and, say, had a partner if i did. (vs. staying in the closet because my co-workers were homophobic,etc)

sorry dude, but you and i both know that isn't quite the same thing as saying on an application that you have faced adversity because of being gay in a country where lots of people still have problems with that.

that was a lame pot shot. lets move on.....


oh, to the other poster, i did acually check that box at the lsat. i personally never recieved anything special from it that i am aware of, and i do not think that a school i apply to would be made aware of that from lsac. and, i actually did write a extra essay at the 2 of 9 schools i applied to that allowed for such a statement. only two of 9 though had rrom for it though.

[maricutie]

TBone: I would have submitted anyhow. Yale asked for a one-page explanation if you'd been out of school for longer than 6 months, and I just figured I'd include it with my applications to the rest of the schools. So far, no one's given me hate-emails.

As for your question ... it's a tough one. Those representatives that you mentioned are in a troublesome position: they can't speak their personal opinion without being thought of as a representative of a certain racial group. There are a lot of nuances, divisions, and differences within each cultural community: Ward Connerlly (sp?), for example, came from a very different background than that of most Af Ams in this country, as did Condi Rice and even Colin Powell. 

[TBoneUCLA]

No hate intended, so please don't take it that way.  I was speaking in the general "you", ie, the gay community, in that posting.  However, there is a significant difference in someone who is visually different, eg skin tone, as compared to an attraction that takes place in your head.  I'm not saying you are not discriminated against, but it's also not as likely that you can be singled out walking down the street.  It's also not the same in that gays have been prevented from attending school, being served dinner, etc, solely because of their genetics.  Once again, I'm not saying gays are not discriminated against.  However, I don't ever recall seeing a sign on a door that said "Gays not allowed" or "Straight people's water fountain."

well, i actually have never seen "coloreds only" drinking fountains personally, except for pictures of them, from over 50 years ago. have you seen a "coloreds only" drinking fountain? has anyones parents out there ever had to drink from a "coloreds only" drinking fountain? the thought makes my skin crawl, but i do know that hasn't been around for over half a century. i dont think colored drinking fountains are why we have aa in law school admissions...

and it is funny...i have never seen a "gays not allowed" sign either, but any time i am in a locker room at the gym and i overhear the word "faggot" being used in casual conversation (this happens all the time) they might as well post a sign.

sure, gays and minorites are discriminated againts in thier own special ways, but discrimination is discrimination, right? i honestly dont think there is a "significant" difference, as you say. many gay men and women CAN camonflouge themselves to the world, others are more "flambouyant" and just as obvious walking down the street as an ethnic minority. what if an employer knows i am gay and i dont get the job do i have the right at that point to get upset for discrimination?

and as it has been said- asian, indian, persian groups (all discriminated against by some people out there) dont get any URM status, either. they didnt neceessarily grow up in the lap of luxury with expectations of grad school, so why dont they get any boost?  it is a funky sysytem, to be sure, with deffinate imperfections.

[TBoneUCLA]

This is why AA is so fundamentally unfair. It purports to be a means of advancing diversity, but it does so through an assumption that diversity will be achieved by admitting a certain number of people based on their melanin content. Such an assumption is unwarranted. Like you said, there are very rich black people who certainly do not need AA, and there are definitely white people who have overcome crazy-ass problems and would add to a diverse class--but not based on their skin, but rather through who they are, the experiences they've had, the viewpoints they can contribute. Humans shouldn't be reduced to skin color, and that's what AA does.

i wonder if there is a way to send some sort of "proof of poverty" for aa consideration. i think that is the true intent of it in law school, is to give "those" who have not had equal shots at things like academic sucess or otherwise and who still my be naturally bright the chance to go to law school. i think we all agree that being a URM doesn't MEAN you had no chances to succeed. it means you are an "underepresented minority," thats all.

[CheezWiz]

Und here vee go…

We all had a fair chance all that’s different in your skin tone?

The “it was 50 years ago get over it” attitude disgusts me.  Indeed the fact that this country had separate water fountains for the black and white race in the early 1900’s IS a reason to have affirmative action.  Indeed there are those of us who have parents who had to endure horrible retched things which this nation condoned.  Yes, there are those of us who have grandparents who can remember days even darker than those our parents lived.  Slavery… SLAVERY ended in 1865.  We are only a few generations from being enslaved.  My grandparents were born in the 1930’s.  They had first hand account from people who were slaves.  My mother can tell me those stories.  Me, my mother/father, my grandparents, and then slaves.  I am only four generations removed from a time that my feet were shackled and you, gay or not, had a right to own me.  Get over it?

It was only 1965/66 fifteen years before I was born that blacks were given the right to vote and that right was enforced and protected.  Whose parents were born after 1965?  I grew up in a society that has only found my race (rich, poor, light, dark, or otherwise) acceptable to vote for 30 or so years!  This country disallowed MY FATHER his right to vote.  The right to shape the nation which his child (me) would have to live in.  He was not allowed to correct the injustices of his generation so you better believe they have effected my generation of Black Americans – whether or not they’ve seen a segregated water fountain!

We rage for the white man who feels he got cheated out of a place at an ivy league and tell the little Black boy that runs home every day after school for fear of being shot or forced to join a gang to get over it.  We talk about other peoples living in this country who have been disadvantaged or felt adversity but it’s not the same as living in the wake of such travesties which your nation condoned -- how dare you compare!

So why is it, and this point is still contested, that Blacks as a whole are performing poorer than whites when we know that they are just a capable biologically?  Do we address the underlying social implications and inferences which that has, figure out what social force is caused it and correct it, no we bemoan AA in the context of how it effects white men!

Get over it… I think not.

[TBoneUCLA]

Und here vee go…

We all had a fair chance all that’s different in your skin tone?

The “it was 50 years ago get over it” attitude disgusts me.  Indeed the fact that this country had separate water fountains for the black and white race in the early 1900’s IS a reason to have affirmative action.  Indeed there are those of us who have parents who had to ordeal horrible retched things which this nation condoned.  Yes, there are those of us who have grandparents who can remember days even darker than those our parents lived.  Slavery… SLAVERY ended in 1865.  Were are only a few generations from being enslaved.  My grandparents were born in the 1930’s.  They had first hand account of people who were slaves.  My mother can tell me those stories.  Me, my mother, my grandparents, slaves.  I am only four generations removed from a time that my feet were shackled and you, gay or not, had a right to own me.  Get over it?

It was only 1965/66 fifteen years before I was born that blacks were given the right to vote and that right was enforced and protected.  Whose parents were born after 1965?  I grew up in a society that has only found my race (rich, poor, light, dark, or otherwise) acceptable to vote for 30 or so years!  This country disallowed MY FATHER his right to vote.  The right to shape the nation which his child (me) would have to live in.  He was not allowed to correct the injustices of his generation so you better believe they have effected my generation of Black Americans – whether or not they’ve seen a segregated water fountain!

We rage for the white man who feels he got cheated out of a place at an ivy league and tell the little boy that runs home every day after school for fear of being shot or forced to join a gang to get over it.  We talk about other peoples living in this country who have been disadvantaged or felt adversity but it’s not the same as living in the wake of such travesties which your nation condoned -- how dare you compare!

So why is it, and this point is still contested, that Blacks as a whole are performing poorer than whites when we know that they are just a capable biologically?  Do we address the underlying social implications and inferences which that has, figure out what social force is caused it and correct it, no we bemoan AA in the context of how it effects white men!

Get over it… I think not.

i dont recal asking anyone to "get over it" as you mention, but i will reread my post just in case i type-oed something and it came out "get over it" accidentally...

someone made a refference to drinking fountains, and "straights only" drinking fountains and i asked if he had ever even seen a coloreds only drinking fountain. how you got "get over it" from that is beyond me. but please dont look into (through) what i am saying and try to find things to get yourself worked up over. that aint the point of this thread.

i am also an italian american. my grandmother herself was locked in a closet (for being "dirty and stupid") regulary in elemntary school by her german teacher and called TO HER FACE a black cat (then a popular derogatory term for italians for thier olive skin color) i mean, there has been a rediculous amount of hate in this country for basically every minority group that has ever been a minority group.

irish have been beaten. japoneeze have been locked up in inprisonment camps, gays have been brutally murdered (matthew shepard anyone? i met his mom. that was just a few years ago....) the list goes on.

my point is that i dont think AA is there as an apology or an "IOU" or past descrimination. if that was simply all it was than alot of other groups out there should get a peace of that pie. but i dont think that is its purpose. at least as far as law school goes. it think it is there to diversify a profession usually filled by the "good ol' boys club" and to give people that grew up without resources a chance to do great things.

and i know it sucks that your dad couldn't vote until the 60s. i think that is rediculous! but, on the other hand, at least he could get married. what is it? 48 states here in 2005 that wont let me do that?

there is oppression alive and well and living in your own back yard as we speak. life is the pits for everyone.

[CheezWiz]

i dont recal asking anyone to "get over it" as you mention

I was not quoting you as saying such but your comments about you or anybody’s parents never seeing a Whites only drinking fountain because that was over 50 years ago smacked of the “it was along time ago get over it" sentiment.  Perhaps I read too much into it.

but please dont look into (through) what i am saying and try to find things to get yourself worked up over. that aint the point of this thread.

It's not you, injustice in general tends to get me worked up.

Yes, I understand that there have been horrible things that you, your parents, and other minority groups have gone through in the course of their existence in this country.  However, those injustices were not part of the foundation of this country and were not propagated in the structural make-up of this country's constitution.  The effects of hate are indeed part of the human experience which we all feel in one form or another but that is just not the same as what American blacks have experienced.

I agree with you that AA is not an IOU or an apology for past wrongs, but it is the best (inadequate as it may be) way we have to counteract the effects of those wrongs.  I would love to see us (as a nation) address the reasons that something that ended 30 or 50 or 125 years ago is still affecting an entire segment of society wiht no other distinguishing factor than their race but as yet we have not.

[TBoneUCLA]

i dont recal asking anyone to "get over it" as you mention

I was not quoting you as saying such but your comments about you or anybody’s parents never seeing a Whites only drinking fountain because that was over 50 years ago smacked of the “it was along time ago get over it" sentiment.  Perhaps I read too much into it.

but please dont look into (through) what i am saying and try to find things to get yourself worked up over. that aint the point of this thread.

It's not you, injustice in general tends to get me worked up.

Yes, I understand that there have been horrible things that you, your parents, and other minority groups have gone through in the course of their existence in this country.  However, those injustices were not part of the foundation of this country and were not propagated in the structural make-up of this country's constitution.  The effects of hate are indeed part of the human experience which we all feel in one form or another but that is just not the same as what American blacks have experienced.

I agree with you that AA is not an IOU or an apology for past wrongs, but it is the best (inadequate as it may be) way we have to counteract the effects of those wrongs.  I would love to see us (as a nation) address the reasons that something that ended 30 or 50 or 125 years ago is still affecting an entire segment of society wiht no other distinguishing factor than their race but as yet we have not.

well, to comment on your last statement- the truth is people in general love to hate (go read any thread on xoxo to get a sense of what i mean )  people love to hate. that is why issues that are supposed to be resolved now are not completely resolved. there will always be the segment of the population that loves to hate.

but i dont know if you really want to say things like "i know everyone experiences discrimination of some kind, but the black experience is differnt and somehow more relevant for this or that reason"  i only say that because obviously i dont know what it is like to be black, but you dont know what it is like to gay. and if you are a guy neither of us knows what it is like to be a women! they are all different types of discrimination, but they are all equally unjust and there are subtle intricacies in what ways the discrimination plays out in our lives. if it is wrong it is wrong. as a gay man i dont have a "people" or ancestors i can point to that were done wrong. it is family in a different sense, ya know? but up until the time that your father was allowed to vote my "family" was not even allowed to be public in any way, shape, or form. they would lose thier jobs, they we be shunned by family, they would be beaten. you know the drill.

i think that type of descrimination is pretty closel tied to the fabric (or foundation, as you called it) of this nation. and gays are descriminated against in the laws (structural make-up of the constitution, as you said) of this country- it is way we cant get married!

i just wouldnt say to others that what black people have faced in the past is inherently worse than what other people have faced because there is alot of "really really bad" going around. the differences are undefinable.