are there any URMs that think AA is TOO helpful in admissions process?

[TBoneUCLA]

. poverty is tied to race in the U.S. those Black people who are disproportionately in poverty are impoverished b/c they are Black and descendants of slaves.

examples of discrimination today are different and alot harder to ger agreement on. for example, why are Black people still disproportionately represented on death row (particularly black people who murder whites)? in prison? why are predominately Black and Latino communities more likely to have failing schools?

poverty is tied to race? i am sure the millions of white americans living under the poverty line would find that most interesting....


and you actually said that poor black people are poor because they were descendants of slaves? is it, like, "IN" these days to not take an ounce of responsibility for ones situation??? would someone like to comment on the fact that poor black communities as a whole, especially the younger members, put a value on crime instead of education? is anyone here familiar with the music of rap/hip hop artists? the lyrics arent about wanting to go to law school, folks. and this is what kids listen to - these are thier "idols"    and this is all coming from INSIDE the community.

i really really hate when people blame everyone and everything EXCEPT themselves for a situation.

now i am not saying that stuff from the past has not put a crimp in the works for poor black americans, cause it has. no denying that.
but does anyone here have the balls to say that aspects of the black community itself helps in the prevention of higher education??
it would be great if i could blame ALL of my personal short comings on someone else, cause then i am off the hook. but i take responsibility for all the choices i make in my life. and everyone else has that same responibility to themselves to be honest like that....

[SleepyGuyYawn]

First, I don't consider myself to be a "white, anti-AA" person.  I am very much for Affirmative Action, but for a type of it that addresses individual histories of discrimination (as opposed to ancestral), an individual's ability to add to a diversity of thought and opinion, and an individual's personal background (b/c I do very much believe that institutions should play a role in helping to live people out of poverty).  The only type of AA that I take issue with is that which only takes the color of someone's skin into account.  

In reply to: I also think that interracial cooperation on economic issues would happen more readily if whites would be conscious of the history and continuing effects of racism.

I do tend to agree that white people should be much more aware of how some unbelievable awful racial discrimination led to the socio-economic conditions, and sociological and cultural institutions, that characterize many African American communities currently.  

On the other hand, given that there is a strong correlation between poverty and race, I'd think that if we had a system that targeted people with a history of living in or near poverty, or with single parents or parents who didn't attend college, that would actually help african-americans.  And without two problems: the issue of just wealthier African Americans benefiting from AA.  And the issue of white people feeling resentful.  I think it would vastly improve harmony between white and black communities if they could both agree to give a helping-hand to those who struggle in their respective communities, not just those who struggle who come from one particular racial background.  

The examples of current discrimination given -- failing schools, people on death row -- these correlate to race, but they more strongly correlate to poverty.  Impoverished people are more likely to be put on death row, and more likely to be in failing schools.  And b/c African Americans are disproportionately poor, it hits them harder.  But again, with an AA system that targeted poverty, this could be better solved.  

But if instead of just trying to eliminate AA, white anti-AA folks would propose other methods to rectify the under representation of people of color in elite professions, then I think we would be more likely to see cooperation on this.

Two comments about this... First, you're acting like the two communities (black and white) are somehow organized within themselves to fight poverty, but refuse to work with each other.  The truth is that this isn't the case at all.  With labor unions nearly dead in this country, there aren't many groups of poor, or working class, people working together to fight poverty -- black or white.  And like I said, within the people who are fighting, there isn't any racial divide that I've ever heard of.  

Secondly, I have to go back to the issues of class and poverty as to why "elite professions" fail to attract a large number of African American or Latino/a people.  Poverty correlates with a lack of good education, knowledge about careers, knowledge about how to get into careers, and on and on.  Give people with a history of poverty a leg up and you'll be giving those who are disproportionately impoverished a leg up -- and you'll be giving a disproportionately big leg-up to the African American community, if you can understand what I mean.

[SleepyGuyYawn]

poverty is tied to race? i am sure the millions of white americans living under the poverty line would find that most interesting....

T-Bone.  It is true that there is a strong correlation between poverty and race. That doesn't mean there aren't poor white people (there are actually more white people in poverty than African Americans).  But it's true that African Americans are disproportinately poor. 


and you actually said that poor black people are poor because they were descendants of slaves? is it, like, "IN" these days to not take an ounce of responsibility for ones situation???

I disagree with where you're going with this.  I do agree that Jim Crow laws and slavery and discrimination have contributed greatly to higher rates of poverty for African Americans.  But I also think this can be fixed by targeting poverty, not race. 

would someone like to comment on the fact that poor black communities as a whole, especially the younger members, put a value on crime instead of education? is anyone here familiar with the music of rap/hip hop artists? the lyrics arent about wanting to go to law school, folks. and this is what kids listen to - these are thier "idols"    and this is all coming from INSIDE the community.

I think the real reason for high crime rates in African American communities has to do with living in densly populated areas, where it's harder to keep kids away from negative influences, and higher rates of people having less education (especially on the part of parents). 

i really really hate when people blame everyone and everything EXCEPT themselves for a situation.

I understand where you're coming from.  However, I also understand how hard it must be to grow up in downtown detroit, rather than some comfy suburb.  Especially if you're growing up in poverty. 

[ryanjm]

A good question to consider for this discussion would be "What causes poverty, and how can you work your way out of it"?
If we all pretty much agree that the problem is economic, then why can't a person, living in the ghetto right now, go out and work hard enough to save money to move out? I have my ideas but I'd like to hear from any URMs about this first.

[angmill08]

 Sleepy, I think that focusing on income INSTEAD of race is a bad tactic, because it denies the effects of systematic discrimination. The wounds of racism are still pretty raw, I think it discourages interracial cooperation to try to act like that was then, and this is now, move on. (Not that you said that, but I've heard that sentiment.) So in  my mind, as we address the issues that face people in poverty, especially in a inter-generational cycle of poverty, we need to be concious that race is a factor for many in that situation. How AA can do this with any precision is still unclear to me...

TBone, you might want to revisit the speeches and writings of African Americans such as Jesse Jackson, Bill Cosby, William Julius Wilson, Malcolm X. Many African American leaders have encouraged discussion within the black community about personal responsibility, education, self-representation in the media & arts, etc. I don't think very many activist blacks deny the importance of these discussions. But spend time in any majority black community today and you will see the effects of the policies Faith2005 listed: unfair housing & lending policies, racism in urban planning, federal funding of white flight to the suburbs. Yes, these policies fell out of favor in the 1970s and '80s (or laws were put in place to prevent them, such as the Community Reinvestment Act, which Bush just scaled back last year... but I digress.) My point is that even those these racist policies have been dismantled, found illegal and/or become less acceptable, the effects are felt in black communities today. And I think people are right to demand a public policy solution to these public policy problems.

How to get out of poverty, ryanjm? Education. The question is, how to provide a good education for your kids if you have little money, little education yourself, and the public resources in your area (schools, libraries, parks, afterschool programs, public transportation to better resources) are not adequate?

[ryanjm]

How do you get more money? Do you believe it is not possible to work hard enough to make enough money to move out of the ghetto regardless of education level?

High school dropout rates:
Yr.     White   Black   Hispanic
2000   6.9%   13.1%   27.8%

While the inner-city schools might not be great, it's hard to be educated if you don't even try to work with what you have. Personally, I believe it doesn't take much more than a few pencils, a teacher, and a library card to become educated enough to succeed at the average college.

[TBoneUCLA]

i am a pretty well informed and logical person, in my opinion. i would never deny that many poor black communtities face hardship due to the mix of discrimination and poverty.

i do raise red flags when someone, such as faith, makes remarks as obviously broad and innacurate as "black people are poor because of slavery" and "poverty is tied to race"

neither of these statements are true. i understand where she is trying to go with them. i do. i understand what she is trying to say. but as a future lawyer she needs to be more careful about how she says things, because she set herself up too easily for critisism in that instance.

poverty is the result of a lack of education. lack of education is a result of poverty. both of these are tied to living in in over crowded communities, hardships such as descrimination if the work force etc. i knoiw that

but dont tell me that the reason you are poor and un educated is because your great great grandfater was a slave. that doesnt hold.

if that were a "true" and logical statement than ANY person who is the descendant of slaves would be poor and uneducated, and we all know that isnt the case.

in the world of logic, where i like to live, a statement has to be true all the time for it to be true at all, unless you want to quantify with ywords like "usually"  "majority" "often" "sometimes"  etc.

otherwise you set yoursefl up for criticism. i simply called her on that lack of logical construction of her argument

[angmill08]

How do you get more money? Do you believe it is not possible to work hard enough to make enough money to move out of the ghetto regardless of education level?

It is OFTEN not possible to make enough money to move to a more expensive neighborhood if you have little education and dependents. Do a budget for a single parent making $7/hr and this will be pretty clear.

Your view of what is needed to suceed in college flies in the face of the research done by numerous educators, child development specialists and other professionals. I suggest you investigate the issue a bit more.

[CheezWiz]

T-

"i do raise red flags when someone, such as faith, makes remarks as obviously broad and innacurate as..."poverty is tied to race"

Poverty IS tied to race.  There is a clear statistical correlation which is agreed upon by the Sociological community.

24% of Blacks in this nation are impoverished in comparison to 10% of whites.  This means that there are 14% more impoverished Blacks even though there is 84% fewer Blacks than Whites in America.

[Ninja]

24% of Blacks in this nation are impoverished in comparison to 10% of whites.  This means that there are 14% more impoverished Blacks even though there is 84% fewer Blacks than Whites in America.

Your math is wrong.

In 2000, according to the US Census, 69.13% (194,552,774) of the population was categorized as white/non-hispanic.  12.06% (33,947,837) was categorized as black.

24% of 33,947,837 is 8,147,481
10% of 194,552,774 is 19,455,277

This means that there are about 139% more impoverished whites than blacks.