are there any URMs that think AA is TOO helpful in admissions process?

[ryanjm]

Cheez: How do you think that the past injustices towards blacks have contributed to denying you the ability to study for class, and read books in your free time(which would help lsat performance)?

I mean, we can babble on and on about what was done wrong in the past, but in the end we're only talking about two things: Your GPA, and your LSAT. Studying, and logical reasoning/reading ability.

If you think that genetics has nothing to do with anything, then what environmental factors cause this underperformance in blacks? Is it white people's fault that blacks don't read and study as much as they should? Or is it their culture and values which fail to promote those things as being worthwhile? What do you think?

[dbgirl]

Well, I happen to be a poor minority, just the kind that AA is "supposed" to benefit, according to popular wisdom.

And frankly I think my poor status is giving me lots more of a "leg up" than my minority status, because at UCs they consider poor and don't consider minority in the formula.

My boyfriend who grew up poor and white could qualify for the same considerations that I would under these guidelines -- and I agree with that.
In general, poor people have to fight for opportunities that are taken for granted by people with money, including a high-quality education. This is true regardless of race.

But I don't agree that wealthy minorities -- who look visibly different from white Americans are treated as equals to whites and have the same opportunities that wealthy white people have. Racial discrimination is very alive and well in this country.

[dbgirl]

Ryanjm,

You make a lot of generalizations - using terms like "The way THEY dress," or the way THEY talk.

And this quote: "Is it white people's fault that blacks don't read and study as much as they should? Or is it their culture and values which fail to promote those things as being worthwhile?"

You seem to be quite an expert on minorities' dress, speech and study habits -- especially those of black people.How is it that you know so much about the entire black population of this country? I thought you were white? Did you grow up in an all-black neighborhood and attend an all black school?

Or, perhaps you're just guessing about things that you have no personal knowledge about?

[CheezWiz]

Ryanjm:

I think that because of past injustices many Blacks have failed to breach the boundary that separates the lower and middle classes.  I think that because of this a disproportionate number of Blacks are subject to an under funded education which fails to develop those two fundamental skills you spoke about.  I think that there are social factors that are a result of past and present injustices which cause many Blacks to fail in their primary education. Now, in addressing issues of higher education those Blacks that cannot benefit from Ugrad AA may end up at a sub-par institution which ill prepares them to perform well on the LSAT.   GPA’s are effected by the unstable foundation which poor primary educations create.

Is this the case for all Black people… NO!  But these are the realities for many.  Most certainly there is a cultural aspect which disvalues education in the black community which contributes to the underachievement of the race.  I think it is horrid that ideals of victimism and failure are propagated in the community from one generation to another.  But you think that those things originate with a fundamental genetic difference?  Absolutely not.  These are the effects of being told that you are too lowly or stupid to vote.  These are the effects of generations of denied education and employment.

As a Black man I would do away with AA.  But in order for that to happen we have to address issues which effect the race in general way before college is even considered.  Again, AA is not the best solution to address issues of social injustice which effect the race in general, but until we as a society agree to get just as angry about the injustices we create as the injustices which AA creates then the issue will never be resolved.

Agree or not this is the logic behind by comments.



P.S.  The discussion of the travesties which a race or group of people have been subject to and one’s feeling about them is never babble.

Cheez: How do you think that the past injustices towards blacks have contributed to denying you the ability to study for class, and read books in your free time(which would help lsat performance)?

I mean, we can babble on and on about what was done wrong in the past, but in the end we're only talking about two things: Your GPA, and your LSAT. Studying, and logical reasoning/reading ability.

If you think that genetics has nothing to do with anything, then what environmental factors cause this underperformance in blacks? Is it white people's fault that blacks don't read and study as much as they should? Or is it their culture and values which fail to promote those things as being worthwhile? What do you think?

[TBoneUCLA]

i agree with cheeswiz (on this)

i cringe when i see a white person suggest that blacks are less capable than whites.

- "Is it white people's fault that blacks don't read and study as much as they should?" (ryanjm)

i would run far away from general statments like this that suggest such things. i really doubt anyone on here ACTUALLY thinks lower gpa/lsat combos in the black community are a result of less ABILITY (god i hope no one here thinks that)
-they might suggest less funds/educational quality (and less emphasis in the black community at large on education as cheeswiz says) and if so, then what we are REALLY talking about is giving a helping hand to those that cant AFFORD to be better prepared for law school, right?

if that is what we are talking about then aa should have a monetary connection. i think dbgirl syas at UCs it does (LEOP at hastings is what i imagine she is referring to) but that isnt connected to the URM admissions, really.

theortically,
as of right now a girl with a fortune 500 ceo father and several ivy league degrees running through her pedegree could easily get into schools generally way out of her reach score wise, if she can check the magic box. surely "this" girl doesn't need the boost she would be recieving, right? i know this is an etreame example, but it isn't like it doesn't happen. and there are many real life examples that fall in the grey area that would be equally relevant, no?

[CheezWiz]

Yes, well said Counselor.

I also agree, that "'This' girl" should not get a boost from AA.  But, can we also agree that this girl (more likely than not) would not require such a boost.  Her parents probably didn’t allow for the possibility of her not attending school, and a good one at that.  She was probably educated at the better schools in the community.  Her community didn’t really have an issue with drug use and gangs.  Her LSAT scores make her competitive for T14, and if she wasn’t up to par on her practice test, she bought a good score through a prep course.

Sure, there are lazy Blacks out there just as there are lazy Whites, but shouldn’t be allow for the off abuse of the system in order to accommodate the more imidiate and pressing issue of providing a chance for those who were not given then same chances as “’this’ girl”?

[TBoneUCLA]

Yes, well said Counselor.

I also agree, that "'This' girl" should not get a boost from AA.  But, can we also agree that this girl (more likely than not) would not require such a boost.  Her parents probably didn’t allow for the possibility of her not attending school, and a good one at that.  She was probably educated at the better schools in the community.  Her community didn’t really have an issue with drug use and gangs.  Her LSAT scores make her competitive for T14, and if she wasn’t up to par on her practice test, she bought a good score through a prep course.

Sure, there are lazy Blacks out there just as there are lazy Whites, but shouldn’t be allow for the off abuse of the system in order to accommodate the more imidiate and pressing issue of providing a chance for those who were not given then same chances as “’this’ girl”?

well.....yes-ish. and no-ish

just like the rich minority girl i made up in my post, there are also alot of po' ass white-trash (and i can say that, i have some in my own family) kids that grew up with no money, no assistance for an education and no one around who cared or valued  college/ gradschool. what about them? they are very diverse for a law school class i imagine (law schools would have to put up a "no shirt, no shoes, no service!" sign. kidding kidding....

anyways, my thought is that those without the benefits many had growing up SHOULD get the lift, but the system should be more...specific to those that TRULY need it.

[PresClay_00]

I have a much smaller problem with economic status being taken into account for diversity than color of skin, religion, or sexual preference.  However, by the time you've graduated from college, you've shown that you've overcome those problems and are more than capable of standing on your own merit.  They're not going to give you a break on the bar, why not get used to it earlier?

[dbgirl]

OK Tbone,

Maybe I'm being idealistic but I do believe that if you have a good story about overcoming poverty some schools, perhaps many schools, will consider that as an admissions factor, even if you are white.

I know a guy who got into every grad school(Berkeley, Columbia) he applied to because he had a very compelling personal story.

I think the area where poor minorities have an advantage over poor whites is with scholarships. There do seem to be more opportunities for minorities in that arena. If I ruled the world or had lots of money I'd dole out scholarships to all the poor folks.

Anyway I don't board like this should divide people so much. We shouldn't have the rich and the poor and the blacks and the whites and the gays and the straights arguing about who is more deserving of going to law school.

[TBoneUCLA]

OK Tbone,

Maybe I'm being idealistic but I do believe that if you have a good story about overcoming poverty some schools, perhaps many schools, will consider that as an admissions factor, even if you are white.

I know a guy who got into every grad school(Berkeley, Columbia) he applied to because he had a very compelling personal story.

I think the area where poor minorities have an advantage over poor whites is with scholarships. There do seem to be more opportunities for minorities in that arena. If I ruled the world or had lots of money I'd dole out scholarships to all the poor folks.

Anyway I don't board like this should divide people so much. We shouldn't have the rich and the poor and the blacks and the whites and the gays and the straights arguing about who is more deserving of going to law school.





dbgirl, i really dont think anyone (in this thread at least) is dividing up along racial/class/etc lines about who is more deserving to go to law school.

clearly different people will have different experiences (in this threads case, with descrimination) and i think we are sharing those, comparing them and working through new info, the way the thread was intended.

i did not grow up poor (not wealthy though by any means) so i wouldnt know first hand about writing a statement on it. i am sure anything writing about overcoming such an obstacle would be compelling. but that goes for anyone, concerning anything. i think it is safe to say though that URM status still carries more weight, at least given what little i know about URM status and apllicant info on here/LSN...

oh, can you guys believe that research from that other thread about blacks not performing well in law school because thier schools are too "tough" for them? what is that? i thought everyone basically felt that once you are in school the education is essentially the same, and ones performance on the bar shouldnt matter based on your rank in class! (the article says blacks would do better on the bar if the went to lower tiered schools and ranked higher in thier class) i dont even see how that makes any sense at all....