Law School Discussion

Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools

wongsb

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #30 on: January 22, 2005, 06:01:31 PM »
Johnnie Cochran  Loyola LA

Add Mark Gerragos, Michael Jackson and Scott Peterson's attorney, to the Loyola list! 

mcleod13

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #31 on: January 22, 2005, 06:38:24 PM »
All these DUMB ASSES that call lower ranked schools Third Tier Toilets kill me. I for one, will have no regrets about attending a 3 or 4 tier school. Because regardless of where I go, I will eventually have JD after my name. That is all that matters to me. I would much rather do something I love and make a little less, then work 80+ hours a week and hate my life. I am NOT saying that all lawyers that work 80+ hours hate their life. I am saying that I would. You keep talking about a ROI, well, for me the best ROI would be WANTING to go to work, not REQUIRED to go to work. To me it seems that most people think that going to a lower ranked school automatically means that you will not have job offers nor make that much money. The fact is, there are many graduates from 3 and 4th tier schools that make 100k plus, if that makes them happy, GO FOR IT. But it seems to me the whole T14 and 3 or 4th tier system is like the difference between Clothes from Wal-Mart, or from Dilliards. THey both serve their purpose, can even look just alike, the only difference is that Dilliards will cost more.

twarga

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2005, 07:18:53 AM »
McLeod, you and I are happy with our 4th tier paradise(s) because we know what it's like to crawl around in the mud eating MREs for a month.   ;)  We've lived in the tents and pooped in a hole in the ground.  The only way to go from here is UP!!

BTW, I'm trying to get a 90 deployment for the spring/summer.  Wish me luck!

Texan29

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Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2005, 07:42:02 AM »
I'll chime in here with my experiences with lawyers who are friends of mine.

Both lawyers that I will offer as examples in this case graduated from Third Tier Schools. One from Cleveland State- Marshall and the other from Duquesne. Both are working at firms in the Cleveland and Akron Ohio area. They both are employed at firms that have less than 15 lawyers on staff. Both in confidence have shared with me their salary information. The first is a partner 7 years out of law school, he makes about $250,000 year plus somewhere in between $5,000 and $10,000 as a bonus for the year, not including his benefits. This is after 7 years with them. This lawyer is now building a house with a custom home builder valued at more than $1.2 Million. The second lawyer graduated from Duquesne about 2 years ago. He is working at a firm of 17 lawyers. He graduated in the top 30% of his class. They offered him a starting salary of $75K, over the last 2 years he's been working there he has received $10K raises every year. The more he proves himself the more raises they'll give him.

This anecdotal evidence will give you an example of two not-so-uncommon experiences with third tier law students NOT going into biglaw and still making a very decent living after a few years of hard work. Something no one on this board understands is that it is considered in bad taste for a lawyer to brag about where he got his degree, it is simply not mentioned in the working world.

So for all the people out there who don't want to go into big law don't believe the hype, you'll be just fine and you'll be in the highest tax bracket that your heart desires.

Stepping off my soapbox now!

twarga

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #34 on: January 23, 2005, 08:22:03 AM »
Nice avatar, Ellie.  I don't know about the WHOLE FAMILY, but hubby's moustache sure has been fun for me!   ;)

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2016, 01:44:07 AM »
People, who are looking for an attorney will presume T14 lawyers are better. Employers know this. So to ensure that people come to their firm over anyone else, they higher the highest T14ers they can. They probably know, the quality of their education is little better than tier four. But they don't care about that. They care about what will get clients in the door.

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2016, 10:11:19 PM »
People argue about the "value" of the attorney, but that is moot IMHO.
I'd rather be the guy with a job making 100K than the guy who is stuck working temp jobs at doc review for years

Plus the bar pass rate is MAJORITY FAIL at many lower ranked schools...........can't be a lawyer if you never pass the bar........not to even get into attrition rates in the JD........

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #37 on: July 02, 2016, 08:52:47 AM »
People, who are looking for an attorney will presume T14 lawyers are better. Employers know this. So to ensure that people come to their firm over anyone else, they higher the highest T14ers they can. They probably know, the quality of their education is little better than tier four. But they don't care about that. They care about what will get clients in the door.

That's the case at larger firms. They have more prestige-conscious clients, and they want to be able to say "My lawyer went to Harvard." Although even at big firms that not always the case.

The vast majority of the time, however, your client has no idea where you went to law school nor do they care. The fact that you have a law degree means that you possess some mystical knowledge that they don't. Most clients have heard of Harvard, Yale, etc, but have no idea what the difference is between Harvard and Loyola.

Quick example: the other day I contacted a lawyer (Ivy grad) for a recommendation for a good local attorney to handle a particular type of case. He referred me to a guy who graduated from a non-ABA school. Clearly, the Ivy League guy didn't care about pedigree because he knew the guy was a good lawyer. 

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #38 on: July 02, 2016, 12:11:32 PM »
I'm not denying that clients tend not to care as much, that's a separate issue. The EMPLOYER does.
The fact is we are FAR PAST saturation point in the legal community, so if you have 100 people applying for a single opening you have to weed them out somehow. The somehow tends to, in large part, be which school they attended.

Plus there is the incidental factors associated with the schools beyond just the schools themselves.
Such as the attrition rate (never graduates) bar fail rates (never becomes a lawyer or takes so many attempts to pass that it looks horrible to employers), and the truth is MOST people who go to lower ranked schools have horrible GPA's (which employers do look at, at least for the first job which is the catalyst which in turn decides the domino effect of the rest of your career) as well as what internships/clinics you did in school (the good ones that employers want tend to have a way of weeding out non top tier school students which in turn gives them that edge later too) and heck even undergrad GPA I've seen used (most who go to lower ranked schools do so due to lower GPA/lsat score in undergrad)
They also tend to want writing samples (which for whatever reason higher ranked schools students have better ones of, in a fashion similar to the higher GPA) and other stuff too.........its equate to "disproportionate impact" and "diet racism" that you hear people complain out, but with the unprotected class of being a grad from a lower tiered school.

It is what it is

But yeah, do everything right and get lucky for 30 years and then clients don't care, I agree on that part of it (but that doesn't change anything else I wrote)

Re: Successful attorneys from 4th tier schools
« Reply #39 on: July 02, 2016, 12:19:42 PM »
And for those who get full ride offers and the like.........yeah you'll 99.999% not fail out, have a decent GPA, and probably pass the bar the first time.......but you'll still have lesser quality clinics, the stigma of people THINKING of you in the same lump as the people they've met first hand of lower quality that were your classmates, plus use some real life past experience memories of yours here:

When you hang out with people SMARTER than you, you tend to become smarter by trying to compete with them, and heck even just listening to the intelligent things they say (you have memories of this, we all do, think back on it)

Now think back on hanging out with people LESS smart than you. The opposite takes effect. Not only do you start to slack off (even in unconscious about it while you do it until you look back later and realize it) but you also accidentally absorb the stupid things they say, ESPECIALLY when they get CONSENSUS on it (everyone in the room agrees a stupid thing is right and billions of years of evolution have taught your social animal brain that that must mean its true, especially if the 3L's tend to say it while you are a 1L, or heaven help you if the Prof who couldn't find work anywhere BUT the lower tier school agrees with said stupid and WRONG thought)...........trust me. We all have memories in our lives of this stuff too. Think back on it.

Now ask yourself............does that have value? Yes or No?

Example: I recall as a legal intern hearing guys who WERE FULL LAWYERS FROM LOWER RANKED SCHOOLS who were there argue loudly with eachother about whether its illegal or not to have someone else's prescription drugs on you (and use them) since they were purchases legally at one point.....clearly the one getting violent in support of the idea was a junkie, but that's another issue.............you get the idea. (for a short while he had me CONVINCED he MUST be right after his "I passed the bar, did you" speech........but the retard was wrong of course and likely is dead or in prison by now-we can all hope at least)