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Author Topic: AA for the not so colorful among us  (Read 3144 times)

dbgirl

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2005, 08:08:11 PM »
Vinny I think this girl you know is an exception to the rule.
And lucky for that matter. I just can't see much of anything overcoming a 140 LSAT.
When you have somebody dying because they are poor and black or poor and white or because of whatever they are ... that erases everything that's great about this country.

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ImVinny!

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2005, 08:14:31 PM »
I hope so, because when I heard that I felt so upset, there are so many other deserving people to get to that school, and if adcomms are passing her up for it, it is DEFINATELY not fair to SOMEONE!

manserunt

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2005, 08:15:32 PM »
I'm not saying that you don't have unique things that make you special for law school. I am just saying that your race shouldn't be one of them. Get rid of the whole box checking idea and we are getting somewhere. Put everything in your personal statement, and we are getting somewhere. Just check the box and we aren't moving anywhere, except down, because we are saying that these people NEED the extra help, maybe their personal statements aren't good enough, I doubt that, but it seems that you are all ok with this.
Correct me if I am wrong, but no URM is saying they don't like it and WON"t take advantage of it.


Wow, that would be one hell of a 2-page personal statement.  It'd have to be written in short-hand.
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PSUDSL08

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #13 on: March 16, 2005, 08:16:19 PM »
Quote

i think this is an interesting question because it shows how difficult it is to appropriately implement AA. 

if the girl who lives by you is disadvantaged economically, regardless of her race/cultural identity, then she should benefit from AA.  and by benefit i mean, she should get a shot to prove she can do the work.  i have a problem with AA when a marginal person (regardless of demographics) who lacks a proven track record or propensity for success is given an opportunity for then it is wasted on someone who really isn't worthy.  i agree with texas1 that anyone who benefits from a gift is obligated to make the most of that opportunity, not squander it away. 

take myself for example.  i grew up in a middle class family, both my parents have advanced degrees.  only one of my four grandparents had advanced degrees - three of the four had less than a high school education.  so my dad grew up poor and my mom was the first generation to be middle class.  i went to good schools all my life and yet took a wrong turn in college and wound up on welfare (briefly).  as an adult, i battled poverty and with some help from my parents, worked my way out of the hole.   

to make a long story short, when i applied to law school, i noted my ethnicity on the application where such information was requested but didnt mention it in my personal statement or anywhere else.  i didnt apply to law school looking for a hand out, i merely presented my strengths and accomplishments and figured if adcomms thought i belonged at their school then i would be admitted. 

its a fact that more minorities are needed in the legal profession.  to accomplish this, the education system needs to be fixed at the k-12 level, and the ridiculous standardized test which measures how well you can prep rather than your aptitude for law school should be replaced with a more acurate predictor.  i dont believe AA is fair when it potentially discriminates against nonURMs.  sure, i dont mind benefiting from AA - no one in their right mind is going to turn down help.  but IMO, AA is like a band-aid on gangrene.  it does nothing to solve the root of the problem and leads to complications. 

Must agree with what you're saying. I would love for someone to do a study correlating wealth and scoring on standardized tests. Actually made a similar posting on another section.
Anyway, while I agree that minorities are under-represented in the legal community and in the corporate world, I don't think that AA is the answer. In fact, I think it just reaffirms a discriminatory attitude. In many cases, it's almost like saying "You aren't good enough to get in here on your own merit, so we'll do the politically correct thing and let you in anyway" or "We're forced to take you, so we'll give you a shot."
I think that an "affirmative action" idea is ok, if it's not based on race. For example, why should a white person who struggled against all odds be given less consideration than an African American or Hispanic individual who did the same?
What if I lived in an area that was among the worst in a big city. Let's say there was a lot of violence, lousy schools, etc. Let's also say that I had to work two jobs to put myself through community college before I attended a decent national college. Let's say my best friend, an African American, went through the same struggles (i.e. lived on the same block, went to the same community college, etc). Provided our grades and writing abilities were equal, should he be accepted over me?
I think it's great to see diversity in the work place and in the corporate world. But on the same note, when many white people see an African American or Hispanic in a company or at a school, many of them question whether that person made it in on their own merit.

manserunt

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #14 on: March 16, 2005, 08:18:21 PM »
Quote

i think this is an interesting question because it shows how difficult it is to appropriately implement AA. 

if the girl who lives by you is disadvantaged economically, regardless of her race/cultural identity, then she should benefit from AA.  and by benefit i mean, she should get a shot to prove she can do the work.  i have a problem with AA when a marginal person (regardless of demographics) who lacks a proven track record or propensity for success is given an opportunity for then it is wasted on someone who really isn't worthy.  i agree with texas1 that anyone who benefits from a gift is obligated to make the most of that opportunity, not squander it away. 

take myself for example.  i grew up in a middle class family, both my parents have advanced degrees.  only one of my four grandparents had advanced degrees - three of the four had less than a high school education.  so my dad grew up poor and my mom was the first generation to be middle class.  i went to good schools all my life and yet took a wrong turn in college and wound up on welfare (briefly).  as an adult, i battled poverty and with some help from my parents, worked my way out of the hole.   

to make a long story short, when i applied to law school, i noted my ethnicity on the application where such information was requested but didnt mention it in my personal statement or anywhere else.  i didnt apply to law school looking for a hand out, i merely presented my strengths and accomplishments and figured if adcomms thought i belonged at their school then i would be admitted. 

its a fact that more minorities are needed in the legal profession.  to accomplish this, the education system needs to be fixed at the k-12 level, and the ridiculous standardized test which measures how well you can prep rather than your aptitude for law school should be replaced with a more acurate predictor.  i dont believe AA is fair when it potentially discriminates against nonURMs.  sure, i dont mind benefiting from AA - no one in their right mind is going to turn down help.  but IMO, AA is like a band-aid on gangrene.  it does nothing to solve the root of the problem and leads to complications. 

Must agree with what you're saying. I would love for someone to do a study correlating wealth and scoring on standardized tests. Actually made a similar posting on another section.
Anyway, while I agree that minorities are under-represented in the legal community and in the corporate world, I don't think that AA is the answer. In fact, I think it just reaffirms a discriminatory attitude. In many cases, it's almost like saying "You aren't good enough to get in here on your own merit, so we'll do the politically correct thing and let you in anyway" or "We're forced to take you, so we'll give you a shot."
I think that an "affirmative action" idea is ok, if it's not based on race. For example, why should a white person who struggled against all odds be given less consideration than an African American or Hispanic individual who did the same?
What if I lived in an area that was among the worst in a big city. Let's say there was a lot of violence, lousy schools, etc. Let's also say that I had to work two jobs to put myself through community college before I attended a decent national college. Let's say my best friend, an African American, went through the same struggles (i.e. lived on the same block, went to the same community college, etc). Provided our grades and writing abilities were equal, should he be accepted over me?
I think it's great to see diversity in the work place and in the corporate world. But on the same note, when many white people see an African American or Hispanic in a company or at a school, many of them question whether that person made it in on their own merit.


Would you say that's because they automatically think, "Ah, AA!" or perhaps because they're just racist to begin with?
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ImVinny!

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #15 on: March 16, 2005, 08:19:22 PM »
YES, and WHY would you want to be considered that at all!

manserunt

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #16 on: March 16, 2005, 08:21:24 PM »
YES, and WHY would you want to be considered that at all!

Were you responding to me?  Because it was kind of an either/or question...
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ImVinny!

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #17 on: March 16, 2005, 08:25:49 PM »
I was responding to this:
"In many cases, it's almost like saying 'You aren't good enough to get in here on your own merit, so we'll do the politically correct thing and let you in anyway' or 'We're forced to take you, so we'll give you a shot.' "

ImVinny!

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2005, 08:50:57 PM »
I just randomly found this:
A race is defined as a group of individuals sharing common genetic attributes which determine that group's physical appearance and, more controversially, their cognitive abilities. Ethnicity is defined as the creation of groupings by individuals (most often within racial groups but also possible across racial divides) of certain common traditions, languages, art forms, attitudes and other means of expression.

A culture is the name given to the physical manifestations created by ethnic groupings - the actual language, art forms, religion and social order and achievements of a particular ethnic group. In practical terms then, it is possible to talk of a White race; of a Scottish ethnicity and a Scottish culture. The last two - ethnicity and culture - are directly dependent upon each other, and in fact flow from each other in a symbiotic relationship. This book deals then primarily with White racial history, and flowing from that, White ethnic groupings and cultures."
http://www.white-history.com/hwr1.htm

What kinds of implications does this have to our discussion?


dbgirl

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Re: AA for the not so colorful among us
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2005, 08:55:08 PM »
Vinny, OK I didn't read the whole website but ...

This looks like a bunch of stuff out of my mother's 1959 World Book Encyclopedia.
When you have somebody dying because they are poor and black or poor and white or because of whatever they are ... that erases everything that's great about this country.

-TMcGraw

http://www.wm3.org/splash.php