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Author Topic: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?  (Read 17892 times)

maricutie

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #50 on: January 16, 2005, 07:03:40 PM »
For whatever reason, it is 'white' people who question why asians aren't in the URM category and as the counter it's the groups currently in URM who are perfectly content to justify why asians should not be included?

No, that's not true at all. Minorities too have some beef w/ AA; a good many, like BigTex and mobell just mentioned, realize the need to focus more on SES issues instead of keeping the overwhelming focus of AA policies on the sole race issue. Plus, minorities are going to have to deal with the stigma of 'being an AA admit', even when they're NOT -- so, as you can see, there's advantages to all in reforming the current status of AA policies. I don't think ANYONE is 100% with the way AA policies currently work.

Which is why some Asians (especially those from poor countries) complain about not being included in AA, while some are happy to be free from such AA "stigma."

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #51 on: January 16, 2005, 07:06:43 PM »
Hey mobel, i'm probably guilty of the Asian-lumping-together thing. To tell the truth, i just don't know much beyond the Chinese and Japanese asians. I know there are Koreans and Laotians and Vietnamese and i've heard there are some others, but i think many people are simply innocently unaware of what's up with all this.

For example, are these just issues of different nationality but the same ethnicity? Or all of these actually distinct ethnicities? Are some looked down upon even in the 'Asian' community?

It's not like i don't care, it's just i have no clue what's going on with all that. I had a Chinese roommate during college at UT so about the only thing i learned real well is that Chinese and Japenese don't like each other very much and are very different from one another.

russian_concussion

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #52 on: January 16, 2005, 07:23:53 PM »
Well not to start another fire, but simply to clarify something: as a Russian, shouldn't I receive special treatment considering the discrimination my countrymen and sympathizers faced during the McCarthy era?
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BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #53 on: January 16, 2005, 07:27:59 PM »
Well not to start another fire, but simply to clarify something: as a Russian, shouldn't I receive special treatment considering the discrimination my countrymen and sympathizers faced during the McCarthy era?

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,21501.msg309900.html#msg309900

Insert "Russian" for "group A" and let the chips fall where they may.

WoeIsMe

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #54 on: January 16, 2005, 07:31:35 PM »
There are two different arguments advancing.  I can understand BigTex's reasons based on proportion, since there's little controversy.  However, I would like to add, there is probably a critical number that a minority group has to achieve to overcome these said cultural challenges.  A policy based on percentage representation may not achieve the intended effects for SMALL minority groups.

Mobel's argument on the other hand "Historical crushing socioeconomic disadvantage", does not justify why a white person whose family tree contains few if any college graduates is not considered, nor does it justify why a URM from a wealthy family would be considered.  If anything, it supports the original question of exclusion.

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #55 on: January 16, 2005, 07:37:35 PM »
There are two different arguments advancing.  I can understand BigTex's reasons based on proportion, since there's little controversy.  However, I would like to add, there is probably a critical number that a minority group has to achieve to overcome these said cultural challenges.  A policy based on percentage representation may not achieve the intended effects for SMALL minority groups.

Mobel's argument on the other hand "Historical crushing socioeconomic disadvantage", does not justify why a white person whose family tree contains few if any college graduates is not considered, nor does it justify why a URM from a wealthy family would be considered.  If anything, it supports the original question of exclusion.

I don't think you'll find many minorities who would argue with changing AA to some form of the following:

http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,21501.msg309694.html#msg309694

which would benefit poor white kids as well.

Andie203

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2005, 07:46:23 PM »
"No.  Life's tough, suck it up."  Put your best resume, LSAT, GPA, recs, and writing sample forward and let the chips fall where they may.  Because everybody's life has been hard in some way.
Your parents not give you money for the movies once or something?  ;D ;D

Wow, very intelligent.  ::)

Congrats it was a joke  :o

Yeah, I got that you were joking Rocket Bot.  No worries.  And yes, sometimes my parents don't give me my allowance and then I have to cry into my cashmere throw pillows.

Uh, yeah everyone's life has been hard.  But the 'hardships' referred to in the AA debate are those factors over which URMs have no control over whatsoever.  (societal prejudices, etc.)  Not middle-class white-girl anorexia hardships
First of all, don't trivialize anorexia.  Secondly, who's to say what hardships are more/less dire?  So prejudice is out of people's control.  But so is middle-class white-girl my dad is a workaholic who is sleeping with his secretary and my mom's addicted to valium.  That could have seroius repercussions on someone, even if she is a rich kid who's had everything handed to her.  Also, I was not saying that everone has hardships and including acne and getting dumped and stuff like that.  I meant actual obstacles and problems.  Everybody has them, even the rich white kids.

That isn't my personal life, either.  It was just an example.

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BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #57 on: January 16, 2005, 08:09:57 PM »
Also, I was not saying that everone has hardships and including acne and getting dumped and stuff like that.  I meant actual obstacles and problems.  Everybody has them, even the rich white kids.

Right, everybody has them, poor kids and rich white kids. But poor black/mexican kids have more problems to overcome than the rich white kids. Some of their parents cheat on each other just like the rich white kids, but they have extra bonus problems the rich white kids don't.

If you feel there's some peculiar hardship that you've overcome, you can always write a diversity essay on it. Most of the law schools to which i've applied seemed to welcome diversity statements on more than just ethnicity. If you think you can convince them that overcoming/dealing-with anorexia was a hardship on par with growing up in the projects, go for it.

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #58 on: January 16, 2005, 08:15:23 PM »
Guess what, there are rich black kids, and poor white kids.

Guess what?  The highest represented demographic on welfare is single white female.

Don't you realize how racist it is to go by race instead of by need, or by socioeconomic disadvantage?

Guess what? You're not arguing with anybody.

Try to find a minority who's against giving the poor white kid from the trailer park an AA advantage.

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #59 on: January 16, 2005, 08:31:13 PM »
Why would I specifically seek out a "minority"?  Is their opinion any more important than anyone else's?  Why are you so racist?

And anyway, I was pointing out the flaw in your logic.  In your examples in the post above mine, your examples consisted of "poor black kids" and "rich white kids"

i use "poor minority kids" and "rich white kids" as two ends of the AA spectrum. Rich white kids should get no AA benefit, poor minority kids should get the most. Poor white kids should fall somewhere in-between.

I mention "find a minority" to demonstrate that many/most minorities are not for AA out of pure self-interest. Many are in favor of AA for reasons of justice and recognize that the poor white kid should get AA benefits as well.