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Author Topic: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?  (Read 17175 times)

blk_reign

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2005, 02:09:36 PM »
it's blk_reign get it right..LOL . I don't recall arguing for or against AA. but thanks for the honorable mention
We're not accepting this CHANGE UP in the rules. Period. American presidents have been in the bed with organized crime, corporate pilferers, and the like for years. And all u want to put on this man is that his pastor said "Gotdamn America?" Hell, America.U got off pretty damn well, if you ask me...

poopoo1

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2005, 02:13:30 PM »
This shouldn't be too difficult to understand.  Let's see if we can get you there...

Everyone in life has challenges they have to overcome.  Women look up to a glass ceiling.  URM's often have to deal with inferior schools and a culture that, for whatever its merits, is distinctive and seperate from that of "white-America".

As a white guy, I can tell you this.  I'd much prefer the challenge AA presents than having to deal with the lifetime challenge of dealing with a rascist majority that refuses to adequately fund my schools or ensure that my vote counts.  The necessity of scoring 4-8 points higher on an LSAT and needing a .2-.4 higher GPA to get into a law school pales in comparison...

And the fact is, I am still being judged by merit.  I know what scores I need to be relatively assured entrance to the schools I want.  If I want to get into Harvard, but I only have a 3.2 GPA and 166 LSAT, well, I've got nobody to blame except myself.  Buck up, ya pansy...  nothing worse than a person born with every advantage whining about not getting what they want...  we all get what we deserve.

I'm a white male who agrees with you 100%.

PS, i've already taken your spot NontradMike!
GPA 4.0 LSAT178

Southern Gentleman

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2005, 02:28:42 PM »
The problem is one of fairness. There is an inherent advantage in being "white". By white, I mean more than skin color, but a part of the mainstream culture. Throughout history there have been several groups of people who are now considered white, but in the past were not. For example, in the early 20th century there was an influx of immigrants from Southern European nations such as Italy. These people were NOT considered white at the time and were heavily discriminated against. Another, perhaps more striking, example us the Irish. The Irish were not considered white either! Even though you cannot get much more physically white than they, they did not meet the requirements because they were not ENGLISHMEN. The definition originally sprang from how Anglisized someone was. During the occupation of Ireland by the British a concerted effort was made to decrease the "wild Irish." They literally starved them out to the point that they died & died & died. Coffins were made with false bottoms so they could be re-used. I could talk about the Native Americans or the Chinese, too.

The difference between African-Americans and most of these other groups is that of the potential for assimilation into the mainstream; being re-defined over time as "white." THe Irish who came to America were able to physically bleand in & could learn the culture and therefore adapt. The same is true, more recently, with the South Europeans. Part of this was also due to intermarriage. All of these things are much more difficult for African-Americans. Yhey can't just blend in, whether they "learn" the culture or not (even if they should, which is a completely different question). They are defined by the inherent preconceptions of everyone who meets them. Even themselves. Jesse Jackson once told the story of a time when he was in Washington, DC and his car broke down. It was in the evening & DC is not a low-crime area. He walked down the sidewalk to look for a phone. He heard footsteps behind him. He thought he was bout to be mugged, turned & looked, and was RELIEVED that it was a white guy. He realized that if it had been a black man he would have been more concerned. Now, this indicated the level that stereotypes have pervadeded our American culture. Crime is not defined by race, but by socio-economic status. They crime rate for poor whites is just as high as poor blacks. Unfortunately, African Americans have a tougher time escaping poverty at every turn than whites do. There is an inherent advantage in being white. Affirmative Action programs try to "level the playing field" and no, it is not a perfect system. But, its the only one that can be somewhat fair. Every group of people deserves the same opportunities for their children.

One of the best posts I have seen on the subject.  ;D

Thanks Giffy. My UG degree is in Sociology & I have always had an interest in this particular area. If anyone is seriously interested in learning more you might get the following books. they go into far more detail than anyone can do on a BB.

1. A Different Mirror by Takaki
2. White Privilege by Rothenberg
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TTTchick

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #13 on: January 16, 2005, 02:51:54 PM »
I commend Southern Gentleman for pointing out the fact that short improvised conversations filled with cliches do little to address the real issues. Doing some reading on the subject coupled with getting some real-life experience is probably preferable to message board arguments.

However, I am hopeful that even message board discussions can foster a beneficial exchange of ideas. The topic of AA has been beaten to death ONLY within a certain paradigm. What is  needed is a re-thinking of the topic in a direction that can be built upon.

I would recommend taking the following short interview into consideration in further discussion of the topic: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/sats/interviews/guinier.html

Included are compelling argumemts in favor of women, the poor, and minorties.

giffy

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #14 on: January 16, 2005, 02:52:51 PM »
The problem is one of fairness. There is an inherent advantage in being "white". By white, I mean more than skin color, but a part of the mainstream culture. Throughout history there have been several groups of people who are now considered white, but in the past were not. For example, in the early 20th century there was an influx of immigrants from Southern European nations such as Italy. These people were NOT considered white at the time and were heavily discriminated against. Another, perhaps more striking, example us the Irish. The Irish were not considered white either! Even though you cannot get much more physically white than they, they did not meet the requirements because they were not ENGLISHMEN. The definition originally sprang from how Anglisized someone was. During the occupation of Ireland by the British a concerted effort was made to decrease the "wild Irish." They literally starved them out to the point that they died & died & died. Coffins were made with false bottoms so they could be re-used. I could talk about the Native Americans or the Chinese, too.

The difference between African-Americans and most of these other groups is that of the potential for assimilation into the mainstream; being re-defined over time as "white." THe Irish who came to America were able to physically bleand in & could learn the culture and therefore adapt. The same is true, more recently, with the South Europeans. Part of this was also due to intermarriage. All of these things are much more difficult for African-Americans. Yhey can't just blend in, whether they "learn" the culture or not (even if they should, which is a completely different question). They are defined by the inherent preconceptions of everyone who meets them. Even themselves. Jesse Jackson once told the story of a time when he was in Washington, DC and his car broke down. It was in the evening & DC is not a low-crime area. He walked down the sidewalk to look for a phone. He heard footsteps behind him. He thought he was bout to be mugged, turned & looked, and was RELIEVED that it was a white guy. He realized that if it had been a black man he would have been more concerned. Now, this indicated the level that stereotypes have pervadeded our American culture. Crime is not defined by race, but by socio-economic status. They crime rate for poor whites is just as high as poor blacks. Unfortunately, African Americans have a tougher time escaping poverty at every turn than whites do. There is an inherent advantage in being white. Affirmative Action programs try to "level the playing field" and no, it is not a perfect system. But, its the only one that can be somewhat fair. Every group of people deserves the same opportunities for their children.

One of the best posts I have seen on the subject.  ;D

Thanks Giffy. My UG degree is in Sociology & I have always had an interest in this particular area. If anyone is seriously interested in learning more you might get the following books. they go into far more detail than anyone can do on a BB.

1. A Different Mirror by Takaki
2. White Privilege by Rothenberg

Ahhh, a Soc major that explains the reasoned and thought out opinion on race in America. ;D Thanks for the book recommendations. I have been meaning to read white privilege for a while now but alas have not had the time.

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #15 on: January 16, 2005, 03:04:39 PM »
Why can't we live on the basis of survival of the fittest?  Is/Was Darwin that WRONG?

As soon as affluent whites are willing to give up all the advantages they have then i'm sure minorities will be willing to do the same. In short, using a succinct example, as soon as affluent whites are willing to share their property taxes with poorer and predominantly minority school districts so that both groups get the same educational opportunity growing up then minorities would be more willing to give up their AA advantage. But as long as affluent whites refuse to share and hoard all of their property taxes for their own school districts - fine, but AA will stay in place to level the playing field later on.

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #16 on: January 16, 2005, 03:08:54 PM »
That said, it even disturbs me when I look at the admissions grids and I see people with numbers like 2.25/145 (or worse) get into some T1, T2 schools.

You are exagerating. Please point out even one 2.25/145 URM admit to a T1 school.

This is often a cheap tactic of anti-AA folk, to exagerate reality to make people believe that severely retarded minorities are being accepted to HYS.

TTTchick

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2005, 03:10:22 PM »
Big Tex is a gentleman and a scholar. Listen to this man.

EruditeLady

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #18 on: January 16, 2005, 03:10:45 PM »
I don't think diversity would be that much of an issue, were it not for the extreme weighting that is given to one's ethnicity.  We all want to meet a lot of different people in law school.  Age, gender, economic background, work experience, and ethnicity are all good factors for determining who gets into law school.

That said, it even disturbs me when I look at the admissions grids and I see people with numbers like 2.25/145 (or worse) get into some T1, T2 schools.

Please tell me what T1 and T2 schools show people being accepted with these numbers.

University of Cincinnati let someone who landed on the 2.25-2.49/150-154 part of the grid.  Univ of Cincy's 25% UGPA/LSAT is 3.19/157.  That is a huge difference.  It seems like every low T1, T2 school has outliers like this.  Univ of Cincy has a few others with questionable numbers.  The school does not disclose whether or not this person was a diversity candidate, or not.

So, what you're saying is that that person who was admitted MUST have been a URM?  Because there is just no way that a person of color could possibly have scored high on LSAT's and done well in school?  Why couldn't that person have been "White" with an extraordinary application/personal statement/recommendation and real potential as a future lawyer?

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #19 on: January 16, 2005, 03:12:39 PM »
University of Cincinnati let someone who landed on the 2.25-2.49/150-154 part of the grid.  Univ of Cincy's 25% UGPA/LSAT is 3.19/157.  That is a huge difference.  It seems like every low T1, T2 school has outliers like this.  Univ of Cincy has a few others with questionable numbers.  The school does not disclose whether or not this person was a diversity candidate, or not.

Cincinnati is not T1 and a 150 is not a 145. So, you were being falsely inflammatory.