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Author Topic: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?  (Read 17680 times)

Braden

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #30 on: January 16, 2005, 04:35:32 PM »
I just want you to clarify your stance. Should black kids who grow up rich be given AA?

Please be so kind to explain why those white people who do not grow up in affluent areas should not be given AA,

White kids who grow up in poverty should be given an AA advantage.

Perhaps you were intending to argue with someone else?
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BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #31 on: January 16, 2005, 04:39:45 PM »
I just want you to clarify your stance. Should black kids who grow up rich be given AA?

Please be so kind to explain why those white people who do not grow up in affluent areas should not be given AA,

White kids who grow up in poverty should be given an AA advantage.

Perhaps you were intending to argue with someone else?

IMHO, to put it in very simple and admittedly non-specific terms, each of the following should account for 1 AA "point":

1. under represented racial or ethnic minority
2. grew up in poverty

So, the white kid from the trailer park and the black kid who grew up rich should both be on equal footing w/ respect to AA advantage. But the black kid who grew up in the projects, he/she should get the most advantage.

Andie203

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #32 on: January 16, 2005, 05:04:00 PM »
Here's what I wish was the policy for admissions to college, law school, med school, etc etc etc....

I think that when you apply, you are given a number.  The only person who sees your name is a number-assigning person, not anyone who has any admissions decision making power.

Then, admission file is given to the adcoms and they must base their decisions on your GPA, LSAT, letters of rec and personal statement/essay.  And nothing can be included that indicates race, socio-economic status, gender, sexual orientation, etc etc etc.

And then after the acceptances/rejections are decided, the applicants are informed and that's that.

Now, I know this is highly unrealistic because they'd have to make sure that none of the recommendations or writing samples include anything to indicate the factors I mentioned above and this would be extremely difficult to orchestrate.

However, think of how many problems this would solve.  I think that this would eliminate less-qualified applicants getting admitted simply because they make the incoming class more diverse.  (And I don't just mean race, I mean women, homosexuals, etc etc).  This would also eliminate less-qualified applicants getting admitted because they're white or male or straight or their dad went to the school or whatever.  Admissions would be based on your numbers, your writing sample and two recommendations and that would be it.

Andie
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maricutie

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #33 on: January 16, 2005, 05:11:02 PM »
Here's what I wish was the policy for admissions to college, law school, med school, etc etc etc....

I think that when you apply, you are given a number.  The only person who sees your name is a number-assigning person, not anyone who has any admissions decision making power.

Then, admission file is given to the adcoms and they must base their decisions on your GPA, LSAT, letters of rec and personal statement/essay.  And nothing can be included that indicates race, socio-economic status, gender, sexual orientation, etc etc etc.

And then after the acceptances/rejections are decided, the applicants are informed and that's that.

Now, I know this is highly unrealistic because they'd have to make sure that none of the recommendations or writing samples include anything to indicate the factors I mentioned above and this would be extremely difficult to orchestrate.

However, think of how many problems this would solve.  I think that this would eliminate less-qualified applicants getting admitted simply because they make the incoming class more diverse.  (And I don't just mean race, I mean women, homosexuals, etc etc).  This would also eliminate less-qualified applicants getting admitted because they're white or male or straight or their dad went to the school or whatever.  Admissions would be based on your numbers, your writing sample and two recommendations and that would be it.

Andie

Let me be the first to say that this is effin' ridiculous.

One simple example: if you've been coddled your entire life and managed to get a 4.0, that's great and all, but probably doesn't begin to compare to the life of a very socio-economically disadvantaged person, whatever the race, who'd gotten, say, a 3.5 or even a 3.7. The former person will have succeeded and excelled academically, and, yes, your method will demonstrate that. However, the same method would severely disadvantage the other by not taking into consideration the all-important context of that GPA. What if it was a crappy freshman year as this person adjusted to life outside the trailer park/ghetto/barrio? What if the last three years were a 4.0?

To sum it up: the context of one's life is always going to follow you around, alter your life chances, your type of living, your economic situation. Is it really all that crazy to take it into account when measuring and examining your achievements?

Southern Gentleman

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2005, 05:12:01 PM »
I just want you to clarify your stance. Should black kids who grow up rich be given AA?

Please be so kind to explain why those white people who do not grow up in affluent areas should not be given AA,

White kids who grow up in poverty should be given an AA advantage.

Perhaps you were intending to argue with someone else?

IMHO, to put it in very simple and admittedly non-specific terms, each of the following should account for 1 AA "point":

1. under represented racial or ethnic minority
2. grew up in poverty

So, the white kid from the trailer park and the black kid who grew up rich should both be on equal footing w/ respect to AA advantage. But the black kid who grew up in the projects, he/she should get the most advantage.

That is a simple, but effective, way to state it. Being black will effect your level of opportunity regardless of your economic status. There will always be people that descriminate based on skin color. Of course such a person would not be as disadvantaged as a black kid from the hood. I am white and grew up in poverty. That is a disadvantage. However, I can remake myself... educate myself... make it possible that I can mix with those of much higher socioeconomic backgrounds without it having as much of an effect as a black kid that lived under similar conditions. Even the process of education is easier for me because we live in a world where primarely white schools (even in poor areas) get a much higher amount of funding for schools. The teachers will be of better quality & will treat the students differently. A wealthy black person will still be at a disadvantage when dealing with whites of similar socioeconomic status. The difference may be less pronounced, but prejudice will STILL be a part of their life in a way that we will never be able to fully appreciate.
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Braden

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2005, 05:18:34 PM »
I agree. As much as I disagree with the use of race (for any means), neglecting the circumstances in which a GPA was earned is ridiculous. (This assumes the plan also took into account major, EC's and other factors that were not specified. If the plan excluded those it becomes even worse than before).


Let me be the first to say that this is effin' ridiculous.

One simple example: if you've been coddled your entire life and managed to get a 4.0, that's great and all, but probably doesn't begin to compare to the life of a very socio-economically disadvantaged person, whatever the race, who'd gotten, say, a 3.5 or even a 3.7. The former person will have succeeded and excelled academically, and, yes, your method will demonstrate that. However, the same method would severely disadvantage the other by not taking into consideration the all-important context of that GPA. What if it was a crappy freshman year as this person adjusted to life outside the trailer park/ghetto/barrio? What if the last three years were a 4.0?

To sum it up: the context of one's life is always going to follow you around, alter your life chances, your type of living, your economic situation. Is it really all that crazy to take it into account when measuring and examining your achievements?
Quote
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Braden

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2005, 05:20:40 PM »
Southern Gentleman, should Asians and Arabs also be given AA preference because of the racism they face?

I just want you to clarify your stance. Should black kids who grow up rich be given AA?

Please be so kind to explain why those white people who do not grow up in affluent areas should not be given AA,

White kids who grow up in poverty should be given an AA advantage.

Perhaps you were intending to argue with someone else?

IMHO, to put it in very simple and admittedly non-specific terms, each of the following should account for 1 AA "point":

1. under represented racial or ethnic minority
2. grew up in poverty

So, the white kid from the trailer park and the black kid who grew up rich should both be on equal footing w/ respect to AA advantage. But the black kid who grew up in the projects, he/she should get the most advantage.

That is a simple, but effective, way to state it. Being black will effect your level of opportunity regardless of your economic status. There will always be people that descriminate based on skin color. Of course such a person would not be as disadvantaged as a black kid from the hood. I am white and grew up in poverty. That is a disadvantage. However, I can remake myself... educate myself... make it possible that I can mix with those of much higher socioeconomic backgrounds without it having as much of an effect as a black kid that lived under similar conditions. Even the process of education is easier for me because we live in a world where primarely white schools (even in poor areas) get a much higher amount of funding for schools. The teachers will be of better quality & will treat the students differently. A wealthy black person will still be at a disadvantage when dealing with whites of similar socioeconomic status. The difference may be less pronounced, but prejudice will STILL be a part of their life in a way that we will never be able to fully appreciate.
3.6 (Mech Engr/Math/Econ (minor)), (167 and 179), Lots of ECs, and a guy with long blonde hair(that should make me an URM):
In:Michigan!, DUKE
Out:Yale, Harvard
Waitlist: Penn

BigTex

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #37 on: January 16, 2005, 05:31:06 PM »
Southern Gentleman, should Asians and Arabs also be given AA preference because of the racism they face?

Sorry, don't mean to butt in, but just thought i'd give my opinion.

Asians should not be given AA preference because they are not underrepresented. Though we should all do what we can to prevent racism against Asians, such racism has not proven to have a negative impact on the ability of Asians to gain entrance to law school in proportion to their population. So, though there may be areas where racism against Asians is having a negative impact on the group, their ability to get into law school is not one of them.

WoeIsMe

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #38 on: January 16, 2005, 05:47:49 PM »
how can you be certain that racism does not have a significantly negative  impact on the lower performing half of asians?

Southern Gentleman

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Re: I did't enslave anyone! Why cannot people get in based upon merit?
« Reply #39 on: January 16, 2005, 05:52:12 PM »
Southern Gentleman, should Asians and Arabs also be given AA preference because of the racism they face?

Sorry, don't mean to butt in, but just thought i'd give my opinion.

Asians should not be given AA preference because they are not underrepresented. Though we should all do what we can to prevent racism against Asians, such racism has not proven to have a negative impact on the ability of Asians to gain entrance to law school in proportion to their population. So, though there may be areas where racism against Asians is having a negative impact on the group, their ability to get into law school is not one of them.

No problem, Tex  ;)

IMPO, it gets fuzzier with other minorities. In general, yes because there is definitely stigma attached. Pretty much all immigrants will face discrimination, including (perhaps especially in the current climate) Arabs. When speaking of Asians, people tend to lump together all asians. That is a mistake, because some asian nationalities go through far more difficulties than others. Those asians that are not over-represenated come from a sub-group of asians in general. Specifically, Japanese Americans & Chinese Americans. These minorities have a higher than average household income than white households. One thing to keep in mind is that they typically have a larger # of people in the household and the average income per person is not higher than whites. They work longer hours at jobs that do not pay as well and contribute more to the support of the family. This is all due to cultural differences between the asian model of families and the traditional American model.

A much more disadvantaged asian sub-group is those from SE Asia. They are typically poor, poor, poor and face discrimination from even other asian groups. you really can't lump them together fairly.

All that said, there are regional considerations as well to consider. For instance, in the south an asian person is a oddity, but not really an unpleasant one (for most people, that is). They are not really treated poorly, because they are not a threat. However we all know that there have been numerous attempts in CA to descriminate vs. asians in university admits, for instance. In the south, the percieved "threat" has always come from African Americans, so we developed a culture of hyper-racism that only now are we (very gradually) beginning to transcend.

BTW,diversity of all kinds, IMO, is good for education and should be encouraged.
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Applied: Jones, Tulsa, Widener