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Author Topic: Boalt or Harvard?  (Read 4911 times)

TDPookie1

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #20 on: December 26, 2004, 05:35:09 PM »
i agree that $70K isn't much.  boalt is at least a public school, so if you're in-state all 3 years, you could be saving a decent amount of money.  maybe that allows people to choose to work at smaller firms, which pay less (and are still considered private practice), because they prefer that work environment.  in contrast, harvard grads either prefer the big law environment (because they are the competitive types that thrive in that type of environment or want to make the max amount of money with their degree) or they have to take the big paying jobs, despite other preferences, because they have a bigger tuition bill to pay back.  that might be one underlying cause.  i wouldn't say that explains it enough for $70K to be 25th percentile, though.  there must be other reasons at play here.
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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #21 on: December 26, 2004, 05:49:21 PM »
Be careful not to misuse the data provided by US News...I don't think you can look at those salary numbers and say that Boalt grads aren't "getting" good jobs, since the data doesn't reflect what they were offered, only what was accepted, and it would be a mistake to assume that everyone accepts they're highest paying job offer. The data does reflect that at least 25% of the Boalt grads that reported their salary for private practice is less than $70,000, and this is about all you can conclude (if that's even a conclusion) without more data.

As an aside, does anyone else wonder how Harvard, Yale and Stanford can all report a median salary of $125,000 for private practice, yet also indicate that at least 75% of their graduates are earning this figure? (They each show a 25-75 percentile range of $125,000) Is it that US News won't report a median higher than $125,000? Has this been discussed on this board previously?

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #22 on: December 26, 2004, 05:51:57 PM »
Boalt is the only school of the top 14 with a low 25% like that.  there is also a low reporting rate which adds even more uncertainty to the issue... i suppose it is possible that Boalt teaches law in such a way that many of their grads learn not to care about $$ as much as their peers in comparable schools, but i just doubt it.


Be careful not to misuse the data provided by US News...I don't think you can look at those salary numbers and say that Boalt grads aren't "getting" good jobs, since the data doesn't reflect what they were offered, only what was accepted, and it would be a mistake to assume that everyone accepts they're highest paying job offer. The data does reflect that at least 25% of the Boalt grads that reported their salary for private practice is less than $70,000, and this is about all you can conclude (if that's even a conclusion) without more data.

As an aside, does anyone else wonder how Harvard, Yale and Stanford can all report a median salary of $125,000 for private practice, yet also indicate that at least 75% of their graduates are earning this figure? (They each show a 25-75 percentile range of $125,000) Is it that US News won't report a median higher than $125,000? Has this been discussed on this board previously?

alphalyrae

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #23 on: December 26, 2004, 07:31:26 PM »
In fact, you can have my Stanford letter in exchange if the choice is too difficult.

I don't think it works that way.  Otherwise, I might take you up on that offer. ;)
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TLFKARG

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2004, 03:09:19 PM »
cutthroat or not, you can still get 125K out of harvard if you finish in the bottom of your class.  you can't say the same for Boalt.

Actually, stats at Boalt indicate that the majority of those who graduate with mostly P's (which is as close to the so-called bottom of the class as it gets) still get 125k firm jobs. I am not certain if these stats are available and published for use by the general public, but I got them from the career services office.  I think the US News numbers for Boalt might be a bit misleading, because many more Boalt grads than Harvard grads choose to go into the public sector and their salaries drag down the averages.

EDIT:  Many Boalt grads, maybe as a result of the culture at the school or the type of applicant the school attracts in the first place, do not want to go into BigLaw.  Many want to go into private practice and small to mid-size firms.  I think the difference between Boalt and Harvard's salaries (and I am not buying the US News figure) may be attributed, at least partially, to a self-selection process.  Many of those who aspire to go to BigLaw tend to go for the prestige factor and end up at HLS.  Those who are less concerned with prestige and BigLAw and prefer to have a more relaxed school and work environment may choose Boalt.  That certainly doesn't mean that those at Boalt who aspire to BigLaw do not get the jobs.  As a previous poster noted, unless we have stats regarding what offers were made and what jobs were taken, we cannot go far as to presume that a lower salary at Boalt is the result of graduates' inability to get better offers.

Also, I think people miss the true meaning of cutthroat.  They think it just means that there is a lot of competition.  Well, there's a lot of competition at EVERY school; it's the nature of the beast.  Schools that are known for being cutthroat, however, have an added element of dishonesty and a desire to jeapordize classmates at any cost.  That means ratting out classmates for violations of the honor code, when that violation did not, in fact take place.  It means hidden hornbooks in the library.  It means doing whatever possible to get get ahead -- be it ethical or not.  I think that all people going to law school have a competitive nature and wouldn't mind even severe competition as long as it is fair.  My friend who did the Harvard-Boalt exchange program said that fair competition was simply not the case at HLS.

nekko

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2004, 04:14:02 PM »
How big are lifestyle issues for you? If they are so big that these issues would have a significant affect on your grades/ability to study then perhaps Boalt is the place for you. Barring that though I think Harvard is the choice and an obvious choice. Boalt's rep is good and better in CA than USNWR would suggest but it just doesn't match up to Harvard (in or out of CA). People at the firm I work looked at me funny when I told them if Boalt accepted me I might take them over Michigan. I think they'd have me examined if I told them I might take them over Harvard. The difference in prestige is just huge.

For some reason Boalt had subpar (for them) bar passage rates last year. UCLA beat them. Don't know why this was the case. The faculty is still as good as ever. Maybe last year were a bunch of slackers. Anyway something worth enquiring about.

I don't think Boalt grads are substantially different in terms of what they want than grads from other top schools or at least the grads from Boalt be they ACLU folks or big firm folks don't seem much different overall in terms of what they want then folks at other top schools. It's not like Boalt is a public service school, while Harvard is a coporate branch office. It's a mix like any other school. So if there are big discrepancies in salaries I'd be careful about attributing it to Boalt just being particularly service, small/med. firm oriented.

Hard to discern much from differences of desire re the program between Harvard and Boalt. I mean if you went to Boalt would you go to Harvard for a semester or whatever? It's not like you'd get a Harvard diploma or anything. On the other hand if you went to Harvard a trip to CA would sound pretty nice I think and you could still say you went to Harvard.




TLFKARG

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2004, 04:29:27 PM »
How big are lifestyle issues for you? If they are so big that these issues would have a significant affect on your grades/ability to study then perhaps Boalt is the place for you. Barring that though I think Harvard is the choice and an obvious choice. Boalt's rep is good and better in CA than USNWR would suggest but it just doesn't match up to Harvard (in or out of CA). People at the firm I work looked at me funny when I told them if Boalt accepted me I might take them over Michigan. I think they'd have me examined if I told them I might take them over Harvard. The difference in prestige is just huge.

For some reason Boalt had subpar (for them) bar passage rates last year. UCLA beat them. Don't know why this was the case. The faculty is still as good as ever. Maybe last year were a bunch of slackers. Anyway something worth enquiring about.

I don't think Boalt grads are substantially different in terms of what they want than grads from other top schools or at least the grads from Boalt be they ACLU folks or big firm folks don't seem much different overall in terms of what they want then folks at other top schools. It's not like Boalt is a public service school, while Harvard is a coporate branch office. It's a mix like any other school. So if there are big discrepancies in salaries I'd be careful about attributing it to Boalt just being particularly service, small/med. firm oriented.

Hard to discern much from differences of desire re the program between Harvard and Boalt. I mean if you went to Boalt would you go to Harvard for a semester or whatever? It's not like you'd get a Harvard diploma or anything. On the other hand if you went to Harvard a trip to CA would sound pretty nice I think and you could still say you went to Harvard.





Boalt IS a public service school.  Much more so than Haravard or any other school in the top 14.  Those people who are interested in public service gravitate towards Boalt because of the Jurisprudence and Social Policy Program -- the only one of its kind.  Harvard is, by all reports, a school whose main focus is to be a feeder for BIGLAW.  There's nothing wrong with either -- it's a matter of preference, however it is important to know what each school offers and how that fits into your future goals.

Law is a prestige driven profession, and the Harvard name will take one far in the realm of BIGLAW, but Boalt is clearly the better choice for public service.

Sportseditor23

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2004, 04:55:23 PM »
So people who are from Harvard get shut out of public service opportunities that a Boalt grad could get?
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alphalyrae

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2004, 04:58:58 PM »
If this helps kill that hostage, I'm not interested in Public Sector. However I am interested in Intellectual Property (Boalt is #1). So maybe that just complicates matters.
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HKrustofsky

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Re: Boalt or Harvard?
« Reply #29 on: December 27, 2004, 04:59:59 PM »
[
Quote

Boalt IS a public service school. Much more so than Haravard or any other school in the top 14. Those people who are interested in public service gravitate towards Boalt because of the Jurisprudence and Social Policy Program -- the only one of its kind. Harvard is, by all reports, a school whose main focus is to be a feeder for BIGLAW. There's nothing wrong with either -- it's a matter of preference, however it is important to know what each school offers and how that fits into your future goals.

Law is a prestige driven profession, and the Harvard name will take one far in the realm of BIGLAW, but Boalt is clearly the better choice for public service.
Quote


I don't think this is accurate. The prime public service groups are just as big a prestige whore as law firms.  If your goal is to work with a local public interest entity then Boalt is fine but if you want to work with say Human Rights Watch, AMnesty..etc, you would certainly be helping your cause by attending Harvard. I don't think anyone can say one school is a public service school and another is not. Several elite schools, including Harvard have generous payment assistance programs and many of the top 10 have amazing public interest programs. For what it's worth I know 5 Boalt grads and they all work for law firms.