Responses from schools.

[muzikboy]

32 years old (dropped out of Wash U Law 9 years ago). UGPA 2.8; GGPA 3.9; LSAT 171. WE in politics, with kids, legislative budget analyst.

In- Wash U (w/$$), Indiana (w/$$)
Out- BC, BU, Chicago, Harvard, Michigan
Deferred- Northwestern, Virginia
Still to hear- Penn, Illinois

[rod treweek]

Hey Aba......which school did you ultimately go with? do you remember which schools you were accepted to? i am in the same boat more or less. It would be interesting to know which schools place more emphasis on the lsat than ugpa.

[Pat Man]

2.89 gpa; 3.83 MBA 150 LSAT
41 president of Silicon Valley company

IN 4th tier:  OKC, Floridal Coastal, Whittier, Ave Maria, Roger Williams;
IN 2nd Tier:  SUNY Buffalo
Waitlisted at Southwestern, McGeorge
Denied at all first tiers.
Applied to 31 schools.  Biggest problem was applying so late in process.  

Schools said that my strong work experience and recommendations will over ride a low UGPA, given that I worked full time.

Apply early and to a lot of schools; the admissions process is random.

Will attend SUNY in Fall.

[Josh]

Ummm and the fact that you GPA and LSAT are horrible would probably explain why you didn't get in to any good schools, it had nothing to do with applying late, you just weren't cut out to begin with

[OSU Professor]

The lasy response, beyond being unnecessarily rude, is also wrong.  Putting aside the author's subjective judgment that none of the schools listed were "good"---despite everyone's almost religious reverence regarding the U.S. News and World Report rating system [my law school ranks in the first tier, so this is not sour grapes], it is not the only or best way to evaluate legal education---a GPA of 2.9, if obtained years ago before grade inflation was fashionable, is probably worth a modern day 3.3, which is competitive at many law schools.  Of course, one needs to know more about the undergraduate institution involved, the major of the student, and the classes taken in and outside the major, before judging a GPA.  A 3.0 im some majors, at some law schools, says a lot more about potential law school ability than a 3.8 in another major at another institution.

I would also disagree with the claim made by "Pat Man" who is seemingly unhappy with his outcome (although SUNY Buffalo is, in my view, a very good school, especially for those who have an interest in interdisciplinary education)---the admissions process is not random.  This is not to say that the process is perfect, for as with all institutions run by humans, it is far from that.  But, as I just noted, you can't simply take a "low" or "high" GPA at face value.  LSAT is a bit more useful, although it is subject to attack on various grounds, some of which may be justified.  

The process necessarily requires individualization, to the extent possible (which is hard if a law school receives thousands of applications), to try to determine whether the individual shows promise (and more or less promise than another aopplicant), and whether the individual's intellectual background will add to the classroom dynamics.

Is this admissions process foolproof?  No.  Is it done by some scientific, entirely neutral method.  No, and few of us would want that approach in selecting persons who must work in the law and society.  Is it subjective?  Yes, in part.  Is it perfect? By definition, when there is subjectivity there will not be perfection, unless one agrees with the subjective conclusions reached.  But, is it random?  Hardly.

[Dave M]

OSU Professor,
I was wondering what you think about students who are not in majors or undergraduate instistutions where grade inflation is practiced.  For example, engineering and computer science are 2 majors that have almost no grade inflation. At my school the average grades in those 2 majors are in the 2.7-2.9 range. Should these people's grades be judged equally with those of a person who majored in something where the average grade given out by the professor is in the 3.2-3.4 range?
In addition, the people majoring in computer science, engineering, and business often had to obtain certain gpas in classes in their freshman and sophomore years. This weeded out up to half of the people from their classes, which makes it more difficult to be significantly above the average the final 2 years of school. I have not heard of this occurring in liberal arts majors except in English.

[OSU_Professor]

My position is, as I hope I expressed in my earlier message, that a 2.8 in one major may be better than, say, a 3.4 in another major in the same college/university, just as a 3.0 in Major A at University 1 may be worth more, or less, than a 3.0 in the same major at University 2.  To truly judge the merits of a candidate and, more difficultly, to compare the merits of two candidates, one must look at many issues re GPA: (a) the era in which the GPA was earned [older GPAs usually involve lesser grade inflation]; (b) the difficulty of the major; (c) the difficulty of the overall course load taken by the student, even outside his or her major; and (d) the quality of the college or university.  

Some of the required data is made available to admissions offices at law schools---statistics that help them evaluate a GPA, but much of the process must be done without solid statistics.  Thus, the system is imperfect, but the effort is usually made.  It is, after all, in the interests of a law school to enroll the students it thinks will be the best students available to the institution, so law schools must -- and do -- look beyond sheer numbers (GPA, LSAT).  

So, in short, sometimes a student with a lower GPA should be considered of higher promise than one with a higher GPA.  

[Gracie]

I have a 159 LSAT score and a 4.0 GPA at top-20 university. Does my LSAT score mean I won't be considered by any top-10 schools? I had planned on going to a top-10 school, but now may settle for UT law, if I can get into UT law , that is.

[CH]

HI, I am writing just to get an opinion of the people that read this board.  I am currently waitlisted at my top choice.  My LSAT and GPA qualify me for this school, but I guess the increase of applications has put me on the wait list.  Both deans of admission have told me my chances for admissions are still good, but seeing as August is coming around I am getting a little nervous.  I have several federal judges who have given clerkships to this school numerous times that are going to call in for me to vouch for me.  One of them is just going to call the Dean of the law school directly.  Do you guys feel this will help me out?  I am very qualified for this school and there are a lot of reasons that I want to go there both academic and personal.  I have not used the connections I have yet because I felt that it was inappropriate, but at this point I am willing to do just about anything.  Please let me know what you think.  Thank you.

[Ivy_Hopeful]

What is your top school, and what are your numbers?