Law School Discussion

Affirmative Action is getting out of hand

TrojanChispas

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Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #220 on: November 20, 2004, 06:23:16 PM »
minorities see history much differently than the majority of the populaiton.  founding fathers were hypocrites, the progressive period was really oppressive, and affirmative action is a small concesion fo rthe wrongs that were perpetrated by the LEGAL SYSTEM AGAINST MINORITY COMMUNITIES...dooes anyone really contest the fact that this NATION has treated its minority communities brutally for decades????  does anyone remember that white people in the south used to publish hundreds of post cards with LYNCHINGS on them???/ minorities do!

amelus

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Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #221 on: November 20, 2004, 06:40:10 PM »
minorities see history much differently than the majority of the populaiton. founding fathers were hypocrites, the progressive period was really oppressive, and affirmative action is a small concesion fo rthe wrongs that were perpetrated by the LEGAL SYSTEM AGAINST MINORITY COMMUNITIES...dooes anyone really contest the fact that this NATION has treated its minority communities brutally for decades???? does anyone remember that white people in the south used to publish hundreds of post cards with LYNCHINGS on them???/ minorities do!

i'm not sure if you are implying this or not, but many ppl on this board have said it, that b/c of history and past, they want something "given back, to make up for way treated in past." 
you write "minorities see history much differently..."  this is true.  but i just want to point out many minorities dont want anything extra now.  we just want to have an even playing field.  by that i mean, for example in application process, just look at my application like anyone elses---based on #'s, ps, ec's, lor's and the like.  i'm not saying AA good or bad.  i'm just saying there are minorities who have been treated awfully but aren't interested in something "extra" now.

John Galt

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #222 on: November 20, 2004, 07:04:31 PM »
I don't get why people complain about affirmative action because the most basic premise of anti-affirmative action people has never been proven. Namely, that affirmative action allows unqualified applicants to receive admission. Their arguements stem from their own perceptions of qualifications based on numbers.
 
Next, I don't know what all the talk of merit is about. 99% of successful white folks didn't become successful on merit alone. Even today, white children benefit from the legacy of Jim Crow. So spare me this "I wasn't even born during Jim Crow" *&^%. The fact is the benefits are still coming to you as a result while they are still hurting black folks. So don't even mention merit.


John Galt

CaliToD.C.

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #223 on: November 20, 2004, 07:08:41 PM »
I don't get why people complain about affirmative action because the most basic premise of anti-affirmative action people has never been proven. Namely, that affirmative action allows unqualified applicants to receive admission. Their arguements stem from their own perceptions of qualifications based on numbers.
 
Next, I don't know what all the talk of merit is about. 99% of successful white folks didn't become successful on merit alone. Even today, white children benefit from the legacy of Jim Crow. So spare me this "I wasn't even born during Jim Crow" *&^%. The fact is the benefits are still coming to you as a result while they are still hurting black folks. So don't even mention merit.


John Galt

Nicely put!


Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #225 on: November 20, 2004, 09:27:29 PM »
but people of different skin color have different perspectives because of the inherent racism in our country.  our founding fathers were slave owners and tried to profess all that bs about everyman being equal, but were actually hypocrites. 

Actually, I don't think they viewed blacks as "men".  Therefore, they weren't be hypocrites, just idiots.

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #226 on: November 20, 2004, 10:22:30 PM »
That's what will happen even if AA is abolished

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Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #227 on: November 21, 2004, 04:16:17 AM »
I don't get why people complain about affirmative action because the most basic premise of anti-affirmative action people has never been proven. Namely, that affirmative action allows unqualified applicants to receive admission. Their arguements stem from their own perceptions of qualifications based on numbers.
 
Next, I don't know what all the talk of merit is about. 99% of successful white folks didn't become successful on merit alone. Even today, white children benefit from the legacy of Jim Crow. So spare me this "I wasn't even born during Jim Crow" sh*t. The fact is the benefits are still coming to you as a result while they are still hurting black folks. So don't even mention merit.


John Galt

I quietly chuckled to myself when I read your quote and saw it attributed to John Galt.  I wonder how Ayn Rand would feel about your argument?

"Individualism, not affirmative action, represents the American ideal," adds Michael S. Berliner, executive director of Ayn Rand Institute. "The right to achieve in spite of one's ancestry is the reason that individuals came to our country. Affirmative action is a racial caste system which makes individual achievement irrelevant."

Personally, however, I agree with you.  I am also keenly aware that AA is not keeping me from receiving a fine legal education at a top school.  Spreading the educational wealth of this nation is in the finest spirit of America, the ability to recognize and correct past injustices.  My $.02.

lawboundFALL05

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #228 on: November 21, 2004, 05:16:58 AM »
These talks about affirmative action are always interesting to me.  I think that this issue really gets us to dig deep and express what we really care about.

I see the heart behind affirmative action, and I understand the perspectives that many supporters of A.A. hold.  I think that what frustrates many opposers of A.A. is that the pro-A.A. people will not admit to two things:

1) That the process of affirmative action will indeed result in some form of racial discrimination by replacing a numerically-qualified, white/asian applicant with a minority applicant.  That minority applicant could be either brilliant or less-qualified.  The issue is that the minority is specifically selected on the basis of race to the exclusion of another person of race.  This is racial discrimination, and no matter what rants the 'pro' side may come up with to justify it, it is still racial discrimination nonetheless.

2)  That at the bitter end of an argument over the legitimacy of affirmative action, the supporters will always need to fall back on an "ends justify the means" narrative.  It will always come down to offering reparations for the slavery issue, or bringing more diversity to the workplace, or giving opportunities to those who would not otherwise have them.  I agree that there is a need to address these issues, but many opposers of A.A. just think that racially discriminating against non-minorities is not the best way to do it. 


I also wonder if any minorities out there consider the negative affects that A.A. has on the culture of non-minority groups.  It causes a tremendous amount of unhealthy, cut-throat competition.  Being a middle-class white person today is very difficult.  If you are not absolutely brilliant, or the member of a powerful family, then it is an uphill battle toward mainstream success.  You will oftentimes see opportunities stripped and given to URM's solely on the basis of race. 

When this level of discrimination is dealt to a minority, that person can retreat to the safety of their respective culture groups (i.e. NAACP) and receive legal representation and reparation.  However, when a white person seeks to do the same, his or her outcries are called 'racist', and any race-based unity and representation is called 'racist' as well. 

At the end of the day, the white person who was discriminated against is told that he has a warped view of the word "qualified", his feelings are not correctly corresponding to reality, and even if they were he needs to pay for the slave-owning behavior of his anscestors. 

My question is:  Where are we headed as a society with this happening? 

If the blacks were not willing to let it be pushed under the rug, then the middle-class whites won't either.

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #229 on: November 21, 2004, 05:20:25 AM »
I quietly chuckled to myself when I read your quote and saw it attributed to John Galt.  I wonder how Ayn Rand would feel about your argument?

Personally, however, I agree with you.  I am also keenly aware that AA is not keeping me from receiving a fine legal education at a top school.  Spreading the educational wealth of this nation is in the finest spirit of America, the ability to recognize and correct past injustices.  My $.02.


Who can resist the power of an AA thread?

Swag, first I assume you were being kind with "wondering" how Ayn Rand would feel (how about cold, as she's quite dead).  Rand clearly abhorred AA.

Secondly your statement that AA that does not hurt you is irrelevant unless it is your position that AA would only be wrong if it hurt you.  AA has not significantly affected my life, nor has discrimination against minorities affected me significantly either.  Nonetheless I oppose both on the same principle.

I suspect Rand would argue that schools ought to be allowed to discriminate as they see fit.  (Indeed there exists a strong libertarian argument that discrimination should be lawful in many contexts, including employment.  Of course, that's the starting point in common law.  Having said that, I believe that the best person should be selected for the position, if that person is a purple homosexual martian, so be it.)  Federal money confuses the issue of course.

However, we as a nation have decided to make race a special category, for good or bad.  That is why all of the pro-AA arguments such as legacy are straw men (straw persons?).  It would not be illegal for a business enterprise to hire exclusively from the children of its employees.  However, many companies recognize the dangers of nepotism and specifically do not utilize such a policy.  But there's nothing illegal about it.

Moreover, the courts are clear that "spreading the educational wealth of this nation is in the finest spirit of America, the ability to recognize and correct past injustices" as a rationale would have been illegal in the context of the University of Michigan case.  Instead, the purpose of AA is to enhance the educational environment for all the students, as apparently you will be unable to understand the statute of frauds unless you can get the "black" perspective on the concept.

So we wink at the minority students, take pity on them and admit a substantial percentage (see the LSAC's reports on how few URMs achieve competitive numbers for the tops schools) to the top schools.  That's insulting to the "URMs" who do achieve the required numbers (and there appear to be plenty of them on this board), insulting to the rest of the student body, insulting to the non-URMs (not you and I) who by necessity are displaced and is contrary to the American ideal.

Keep your socks dry and come home safe.