Law School Discussion

Affirmative Action is getting out of hand

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #130 on: November 11, 2004, 02:59:49 PM »
If anyone here is implying by their arguments that blacks can't score as well as whites on standardized tests, you have some serious issues. Given an equal playing field, w/o discrimination , blacks would do equally as well. Anyone who argues otherwise, I would have to say has problems. I have many African-American friends who have done well on their SATs, and LSATS, and am sure when they get to law school they will kick ass.

superiorlobe

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #131 on: November 11, 2004, 03:05:07 PM »
If anyone here is implying by their arguments that blacks can't score as well as whites on standardized tests, you have some serious issues. Given an equal playing field, w/o discrimination , blacks would do equally as well. Anyone who argues otherwise, I would have to say has problems. I have many African-American friends who have done well on their SATs, and LSATS, and am sure when they get to law school they will kick ass.

Sounds like you have your mind made up ahead of time.  I call that being prejudiced.

superiorlobe

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #132 on: November 11, 2004, 03:19:29 PM »
I don't think so Lobe. I just like to believe every person (black, white, hispanic, asian) has the potential to succeed, if given the tools and opportunity. From your argument, you appear to think that blacks just can't score as well, and I just find this ridiculous. Blacks do it everyday. But perhaps my environment is different. If you knew the people I know, and had classes and discussions w/ them you couldn't think blacks or any minority wasn't capable. Agreed, most of them are not disadvantaged and come from affluent backgrounds, and yes perhaps AA doesn't help the truly disadvantaged but they don't control the system. Some of them have written to admissions comm. telling them not to consider their race as a factor; their numbers and other activities speak for themselves. One is now at Harvard and another at Georgetown. I just think its ridiculous that u believe blacks can't score as high as other groups. I prefer not to stereotype and make broad generalizations about the capability of a particular race b/c that's how we got into this mess, isn't it?

Hey, there is data on this stuff.  You can analyze test scores, look at huge sample sizes, etc.  You have a lot of anecdotal evidence, but there is also a rigorous, scientific, statistical way to approach these questions.

Check out this book:

IQ and the Wealth of Nations

Lynn and Vanhanen argue that a significant part of the gap between rich and poor countries is due to differences in national intelligence (national IQs). Based on an extensive survey of national IQ tests, the results of their study challenge the previous theories of economic development and provide a new basis to evaluate the prospects of economic development throughout the world.

Lynn (psychology, U. of Ulster) and Vanhanen (political science, U. of Tampere and U. of Helsinki, Finland) argue that the intelligence of nations differ, and the difference manifests in wealth or poverty. They challenge theories that assume intelligence to average out about the same everywhere, and assertions that, for example, African nations are poor because Africans are mentally deficient to be morally offensive.

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #133 on: November 11, 2004, 03:30:22 PM »
Agreed. I don't contend that the statistics and data you present is incorrect, I'm interested in asking why? Why is it that blacks, which come from advantaged background are still not achieving higher scores? I wouldn't argue it has to do with their innate intelligence (though some might consider this a possibility) but perhaps is caused by social pressures. Sociologists have been developing theories that even blacks that grow up in economically advantaged families feel a pressure from other blacks to still act ghetto and underachieve. Tell you truth, I just dont know. That's why I try not to draw any decisive conclusions on the AA issue b/c i think it is complex. Just my 2 cents.

Regal_Muse

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #134 on: November 11, 2004, 03:32:53 PM »
Everyone should take any sort of “statistical data" with a grain of salt. The lsats do not determine how well a student will perform in law school. Therefore, if a student is admitted into law school with lower stats, it doesn't mean they don't deserve to be there. At the firm I intern in Downtown Los Angeles, I've spoken to several partners about law school admissions and the lsats. When they took the lsats, the vase majority of them scored between the 140-150 ranges. Mind you, the majority of these partners (who happen to be white male) attended law schools that are in the Top 20.

What right does any  of us have to say one person deserves to be in law school over the other whether they are black, white, Asian, or Latino? I can't stress enough that there is more to an applicant than just numbers. White people as a group never have and never will be at a disadvantage when it comes to admissions or anything else in our society.  Now there are individual situations that can be considered. No one ever makes the argument for the white students who also get into schools with lower stats as well. But god forbid if a black or Latino does. Suddenly everything is unfair and the world is a cruel place.

At most Tier 1 schools, whites still make up the majority of the entire student body. Personally, I believe that the root of these concerns is due to a superiority complex, not a true desire for diversity and equality within law schools. Deep down, certain people (I won't name names, but they all know who they are) do not want to see people of color succeed. They fear too many people of color moving up and possibly posing a threat to certain privileges whites have always been given.  

superiorlobe

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #135 on: November 11, 2004, 03:40:35 PM »
As I have already mentioned at least twice in this thread, I strongly support racially-based affirmative action.   ;D

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #136 on: November 11, 2004, 03:42:23 PM »
http://esr.oupjournals.org/cgi/content/abstract/19/4/411

Here's the absract to the critique of the IQ and Wealth of Nations article. It's books and quack science like this that gets the human species in trouble.

Tom

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #137 on: November 11, 2004, 03:52:12 PM »
Whether you agree with it or not AA is going to be around for awhile.
As a white male I realize that my numbers have to be far better than females or people of color if I am to be admitted to the law schools of my choice. Whether they are or not, i'll know in a few months. This is the reality of things.

rwhitman

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #138 on: November 11, 2004, 03:59:06 PM »
Regal,
Using lsat scores of people who went to law school ten or twenty + years ago does not count as evidence that many white males get into top 20 law schools these days with a 140-150 lsat score. Half as many people as now applied to law school in those days, and I don't believe there really were minorities or even many women who applied back then.

The lsat has been shown to correlate strongly with success in law school, and if you have been reading other threads on this topic you would know that 50% of african americans are in the bottom 10% of their class. So it would seem that admitting applicants with lower than average scores does create disparities in school performance.

Also, you mentioned that 'certain people' just don't want to see people of different color succeed. I think the reason is more based on a sense of equality and these 'certain people' are rightly angry when a minority with lower scores and worse credentials is given a job or place in a school over them.

Affirmative action has helped my family, when my mother applied to the police force.  She didn't have better credentials than many of the men but there was a push for more females in the workplace in those days. Now there are more females working so I don't think that is necessary anymore. Hopefully the same thing will happen for african americans soon so affirmative action will be a non-issue.

My family immigrated from germany/ireland so I admit it does piss me off that some nationalities are given bonuses that others aren't. Doesn't seem fair at all.



shiveringjenny

Re: Affirmative Action is getting out of hand
« Reply #139 on: November 11, 2004, 04:00:28 PM »
i don't know... from what i've seen at lsn/lsd law school websites, there isn't some crazy epidemic of white guys with 4.0's and 175+'s having their seats stolen by URM's with 3.0's and 155's. It just isn't happening.

Tom, if your numbers don't get you in to a specific LS (besides yale), it has nothing to do with the fact that you're a white guy and everything to do with some drunken adcomm pulling names out of a hat.