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Author Topic: Chapman v. Whittier  (Read 8600 times)

Aonghus

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2004, 05:09:29 PM »
I decided at the beginning of this game, the only way I would pay for law school is if I get into the top 100.  The only way I would go to whittier would be if THEY paid for it, and even then, I would be searching for other options.

Again, this is just me, but if my only option was Whittier, Id go do something other than law school.




I just really want to know...are all of these facts that you guys are explaining to me from word of mouth or some other resource.  Obviously I am a little nervous about going to a school where the bar passage rate is 37%.  No matter how hard I work, nothing is ever certain of course.  If I got out of a 4th tier like Whittier and even made it into a 3rd Tier like Southwestern I would be happy.  The only reason I am a little hesitant to take into account everything everyone is saying too seriously is the statistics from www.martindale.com and the nalpdirectory.com website.

As for the matriculation rate, I know that 17 percent or so leave for other reasons other than academic.  so the original 37% goes down to 20 or so.  Still not good but at least better than what I thought.

If you had no other choice, would you go there?...just out of curiosity...you guys might actually save me a lot of stress.


Thank you again.

tier4bound

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2004, 05:25:07 PM »
That is an interesting response.  Is it because of the location, reputation, or your desire to just go to a top 100 school?


If the school has been around since '76 or whatnot, I would assume that it has to have some credibility and maybe the poor numbers are the fact that it lets in people who want to go to law school at the last minute and find out it is not for them.  Maybe the admittants like me (2.9, 152), go there and get discouraged by the numbers and decide it isnt for them.  I'm not sure but I know if I go there I cant take it for granted because it is my one shot to do something that I enjoy with my life and make something out of it (not necessarily money wise, although it would be nice to get into a beter school and have the advantage of garnering a higher salary.

Many thanks.

Aonghus

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2004, 05:45:20 PM »
for me its a dollars and sense approach.

Law School is expensive.  Even a cheap private is 25k a year, plus another 16-18 to live on.  Best case scenario, without a scholarship, you are talking 120k, with a scholarship 60k.

Im not wealthy.

I know I have to pay that *&^% off.  Odds are if I get in a top 100 and Im top 15-25% of my class, I can earn an income which will allow me to service that debt.

If I go to a t4, my most likely option if I dont transfer out is that I will make 60, IF I can find a job.

I can service 60k in debt on 60k in income...

I can service 120k in debt on 120k in income...

What I CANT do is service 120k in debt on 60k in income or if I dont have a job.

in the top 100, I have a decent shot at the 120, so I can justify a higher debt loand

In the less than top 100, the lower I go, the less of a chance I have of even servicing a 60k debt load.

In that stack, Whittier is very near the bottom, and there is a likely possibility that I will be servicing debt while managing an AM/PM.

I dont like those odds.

thechoson

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2004, 06:04:57 PM »
for me its a dollars and sense approach.

Law School is expensive.  Even a cheap private is 25k a year, plus another 16-18 to live on.  Best case scenario, without a scholarship, you are talking 120k, with a scholarship 60k.

Im not wealthy.

I know I have to pay that *&^% off.  Odds are if I get in a top 100 and Im top 15-25% of my class, I can earn an income which will allow me to service that debt.

If I go to a t4, my most likely option if I dont transfer out is that I will make 60, IF I can find a job.

I can service 60k in debt on 60k in income...

I can service 120k in debt on 120k in income...

What I CANT do is service 120k in debt on 60k in income or if I dont have a job.

in the top 100, I have a decent shot at the 120, so I can justify a higher debt loand

In the less than top 100, the lower I go, the less of a chance I have of even servicing a 60k debt load.

In that stack, Whittier is very near the bottom, and there is a likely possibility that I will be servicing debt while managing an AM/PM.

I dont like those odds.

Honestly, I don't know any BAs managing AM/PMs, much less JDs.  So I wouldn't worry too much about that.  EVERYBODY I know that graduated from UCLA (where I go) who have BAs have decent jobs for now.  So you have a BA, you are probably going to be okay.  Now having said that, I will cover some things you should remember if you want to go to Whittier.

I think you got a full ride, not sure.  Let's say you end up going to law school, and you suck.  You study harder than you ever studied, but you still don't get it.  It's possible.  You don't get in top 15-20 percent.  You lose your scholarship, and you've screwed yourself.  You are staring at about 100k in debt if you choose to continue with law school.  Also, don't forget opportunity costs.  My friend who just graduated from college is earning about 30k a year.  Over 3 years, that's 100k you lost in earnings, plus practical job experience.  Total that to the 100k of debt you have, and you've pretty much lost almost 200k of economic cost.  Just THINK of the things you could do with 200K.  I know a guy that started a small business with that amount of money.  He works a load (100 hrs a week sometimes), but he can clear about 90-100k a year, and he's halfway to paying off all his start up costs, after which the business will clear 150-200k for him every year.
That's one small example of what you can do with almost 200k worth of money.  This is what you lose.  What do you get?  A JD from a 4th tier school.  Let's say you didn't distinguish yourself.  Now you are screwed for BIGLAW, so you're looking at maybe 50k if you can get any kind of legal job.  But, uh oh.  You have grads in your region, from UCLA, Loyola, Chapman, USC, Southwestern, Pepperdine, hell even USD and Cal Western- all schools with better reps than Whittier.  The grads from these schools who didn't do as well will also be competing for those 50k jobs.  So your odds aren't looking too good.  You can take the bar and pass, and then what?

Sure you may not work an AM PM, but you might get a job as an Admin or something for 30k a year.  Something you could have done straight out of college.  Hell, even those jobs may not hire you cause you are "overqualified" with that JD.
You could start up a solo practice, or look for fellow law school alum.  But then again,you are going to need start up costs.  Try getting any kind of business loan on top of that 100k of student loans you owe already.  Unlikely.  So you max out the credit cards.  Sure, opening a practice wouldn't cost as much, cause your primary capital is in your head.  But still, you'd need a good 30-50k to survive the 1st year.  You work like a female dog (more even then your BIGLAW counterparts, sadly), to keep your dream alive.  Maybe you'll get enough cases to bring in 50-60k a year.  By this time, you are 4-5 years removed from college.  That 30k job you took as a college grad may be good enough to get you 50-60k by this time. 

You could have taken that 200k of money you lost going to law school and have started a business instead, and you could be clearing a lot more money.

Is this what your future will look like?  Maybe, maybe not.  But it's a fact that this kind of life is much more likely for a Whittier grad than a Harvard grad.  A decent second tier grad would be somewhere in the middle.

So there you go

Aonghus

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2004, 06:27:31 PM »
Dude, what makes you think you cant make 30k managing an AM/PM? :)

thechoson

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #35 on: April 07, 2004, 06:29:52 PM »
Guess you could, just wouldn't want to do it.  Seriously, the only way you'd be stuck working an AM PM with a BA is if you can't speak English.

Aonghus

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #36 on: April 07, 2004, 06:32:58 PM »
I think that you have been dazzled by academia my friend.  I know people with BAs managing McDonalds, Laundrymats, hell, I know a guy with a BA who is doing data entry for 10 bucks an hour.

Fact is, a liberal arts degree, with the exception of preparing you for grad school is very little preparation for gainful employment.  Its cool to get a BA and be educated, unfortunately, then you need a real skill :)

thechoson

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #37 on: April 07, 2004, 06:34:20 PM »
Did these people graduate from a school like UCLA?

Aonghus

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #38 on: April 07, 2004, 06:36:13 PM »
these are UCSD and SDSU grads.

thechoson

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Re: Chapman v. Whittier
« Reply #39 on: April 07, 2004, 06:37:53 PM »
Well UCSD and SDSU ain't quite UCLA, are they?  ;)