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Author Topic: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army  (Read 2981 times)

TrojanChispas

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #30 on: October 20, 2004, 05:35:43 PM »
the jews occupy palestine and have taken land that was supposed to be palestinian land according to the 1948 UN boundaries.  i support the jewish homeland but also feel that the palestinians have gotten a bad deal.  it seems like some of you dont know your historical facts and are agruing on pure emotion
Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1

buster

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #31 on: October 20, 2004, 05:44:01 PM »
Sorry to be picky, but you mean "the Israelis," not "the jews."


the jews occupy palestine and have taken land that was supposed to be palestinian land according to the 1948 UN boundaries.  i support the jewish homeland but also feel that the palestinians have gotten a bad deal.  it seems like some of you dont know your historical facts and are agruing on pure emotion

TrojanChispas

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #32 on: October 20, 2004, 05:47:42 PM »
true, but irrelevant because that is who israel is for
Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1

buster

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #33 on: October 20, 2004, 05:51:58 PM »
I don't want to take this too far because I essentially agree with your point, but I don't think it's irrelevant because (a) many Jews do not live in Israel, (b) many non-Jews do live in Israel, and (c) many Jews do not support Israel's actions regarding the Palestinians and would not want their entire religion/culture conflated with the policies of the state of Israel.


true, but irrelevant because that is who israel is for

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2004, 06:14:16 PM »

the jews occupy palestine and have taken land that was supposed to be palestinian land according to the 1948 UN boundaries. i support the jewish homeland but also feel that the palestinians have gotten a bad deal. it seems like some of you dont know your historical facts and are agruing on pure emotion

buster you point out one flaw, but others exist.

i meant to make one post just to illustrate to someone that they really dont have facts correct and add several inaccurate implications and 20 odd posts later look where i am...oh well.

1948?? this is always a recurring problem with people discussing this conflict and it goes back to my original point.  if you want to take a side, fine, but make sure it is based in at least some fundamental knowledge (no Phd's req. amarain).
in 1948 all the arab nations rejected the idea of splitting the land in any way.  they rejected any jewish state, or jews for that matter, to exist in the middle east. (i use the term jewish state buster b/c that is how they approached it, despite your accurate point that isr. has many openly practicing christians and muslims today).  also, i'm not sure what palestinian entity you're referring to since non existed at that time when the UN granted israel nation status.  they were all jordanians and egyptians.

of course it is ironic and humorous that with clearly little knowledge you say others argue on a pure emotional state.  (btw, i do not think amarain even argues on an emotional state, at least not a pure emotional state, i merely think some of her facts and assumptions are mistaken, which leads to some inaccurate conclusions).  unfortunatley she is not alone in this area.  you, however, at least from what you wrote, state only 1 fact, which is completely inaccurate in every sense of the word.

TrojanChispas

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #35 on: October 20, 2004, 08:32:45 PM »
if there were no palestinians then what do you call the people that lived in palestine before the balfour declarationa and the 1948 partition?
im not arguing against an isreali state but i think it is improper to discount the existence of palestinians.  they didnt have a formal goverment with teh same recognition as teh israelis because the brits wouldnt let them.  am i wrong that the UN separated palestine into two areas and the israelis took most of in teh ensuing war?
Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #36 on: October 20, 2004, 09:44:26 PM »
if there were no palestinians then what do you call the people that lived in palestine before the balfour declarationa and the 1948 partition?
im not arguing against an isreali state but i think it is improper to discount the existence of palestinians. they didnt have a formal goverment with teh same recognition as teh israelis because the brits wouldnt let them. am i wrong that the UN separated palestine into two areas and the israelis took most of in teh ensuing war?

YES YOU ARE WRONG!!  before '48 a bunch of arab nations surrounded israel/palestine whatever want to call it.  no such thing as a palestinian.  then, after holocaust the UN decided to grant isr. a state.  tried dividing it up in any way that would make surrounding arab nations happy, they refused ANY deal that would recognize any jewish entity in israel/palestine.  the minute the UN declared isr. a state every surrounding arab nation (jordan, syria, egpyt etc..) declared war on basically thousands of holocaust surviving refugees and their families and friends.  with the declared goal of whiping any jew from the area via death or flee--these far more massive and militarily superior armies were emberrassed and lost to this fledgling nation.  they tried again in '67 with the same goal (though development their a little different).  now along the way what happened was that many arabs fled from land that israel conquered.  they were JORDANIAN AND EGYPTIAN citizens.  now when they wanted to go back to their home countries those 2 nations said NO WAY we're not taking you back.  this led to a group of ppl w/o a state. over a few decades these people became known as palestinians.

incredible isn't it?  this isnt 2,000 yr old history--this happened just a few generations ago yet ppl skew the facts to the point that...well that ppl think israel STOLE land from palestinians. 

have you ever heard anywhere in the anals history of a country that gets attacked 3 times with the said goal of the attacking nations to wipe out the existing nation and the nation survives all three times and moreover conquers land from the attackers.
the attackers go...that's not fair, you took our land! and the world goes ...ur right!
when you start to learn the most basic of facts you get an idea why so many ppl are absolutely disgusted with "world opinion" and couldnt care less what UN, Europe, and middle east nations say.  those are the same nations that tried to wipe out the grandparents and parents of those that live in israel today.  the audacity of nations who tried to wipe them out now lecturing them about morality!
at any rate, dont trust me on the facts, they are readily verifiable.

(a note to amarain if she checks this anymore.  none of this excuses the act of that soldier and the proof positive that isr. have a far higher standard of morality is that virtually none of them would EVER try justifying such an action while many pal. and their supporters wont condemn in a clear voice terr. acts that kill innocent civilans including children).

Koga

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #37 on: October 20, 2004, 10:24:08 PM »
I don't want to take this too far because I essentially agree with your point, but I don't think it's irrelevant because (a) many Jews do not live in Israel, (b) many non-Jews do live in Israel, and (c) many Jews do not support Israel's actions regarding the Palestinians and would not want their entire religion/culture conflated with the policies of the state of Israel.


Thank you.  Once again you point out an important fact which most people choose to ignore.

I am really tired of Israel blindly accusing all those who question their actions of harbouring anti-semetic views.  And I also hate it when anti-semetic groups exploit the international community's frustration with Israel's brutality for their of ends.
Recipient of the SPD Christmas Concussion.

TrojanChispas

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2004, 03:53:02 PM »
NO SIR you dont know your history
there was such a thing as palestine before 1948.  it was a province of the ottoman empire and in the sykes picot agreement it was to be under british control, contrary to the husein mcmahon agreement.  the balfour declaration is the foundation of a jewish state in 1917.  THe indigenious people were becoming increasingly upset at the influx of jewish imigrants long before the the second world war.  because the brits wanted to keep the unrest to a minimum as they were about to enter into another war they released the white papers which limited the ammount of jewish immigration over time and said the the establishment of a jewish state was not to be at the expense of the indigenious people.  WWII changed that back to unlimited imigration but popular unrest and i say popular because eventhough the jewish population was at an alltime high, the palestinians were still the majority.  in 1948 the brits gave up and turned the problem over to the UN. the territory was divided and mush of the palestinian portion was quickly seized by the Israeli Defense Force.


if there were no palestinians then what do you call the people that lived in palestine before the balfour declarationa and the 1948 partition?
im not arguing against an isreali state but i think it is improper to discount the existence of palestinians. they didnt have a formal goverment with teh same recognition as teh israelis because the brits wouldnt let them. am i wrong that the UN separated palestine into two areas and the israelis took most of in teh ensuing war?

YES YOU ARE WRONG!! before '48 a bunch of arab nations surrounded israel/palestine whatever want to call it. no such thing as a palestinian. then, after holocaust the UN decided to grant isr. a state. tried dividing it up in any way that would make surrounding arab nations happy, they refused ANY deal that would recognize any jewish entity in israel/palestine. the minute the UN declared isr. a state every surrounding arab nation (jordan, syria, egpyt etc..) declared war on basically thousands of holocaust surviving refugees and their families and friends. with the declared goal of whiping any jew from the area via death or flee--these far more massive and militarily superior armies were emberrassed and lost to this fledgling nation. they tried again in '67 with the same goal (though development their a little different). now along the way what happened was that many arabs fled from land that israel conquered. they were JORDANIAN AND EGYPTIAN citizens. now when they wanted to go back to their home countries those 2 nations said NO WAY we're not taking you back. this led to a group of ppl w/o a state. over a few decades these people became known as palestinians.

incredible isn't it? this isnt 2,000 yr old history--this happened just a few generations ago yet ppl skew the facts to the point that...well that ppl think israel STOLE land from palestinians.

have you ever heard anywhere in the anals history of a country that gets attacked 3 times with the said goal of the attacking nations to wipe out the existing nation and the nation survives all three times and moreover conquers land from the attackers.
the attackers go...that's not fair, you took our land! and the world goes ...ur right!
when you start to learn the most basic of facts you get an idea why so many ppl are absolutely disgusted with "world opinion" and couldnt care less what UN, Europe, and middle east nations say. those are the same nations that tried to wipe out the grandparents and parents of those that live in israel today. the audacity of nations who tried to wipe them out now lecturing them about morality!
at any rate, dont trust me on the facts, they are readily verifiable.

(a note to amarain if she checks this anymore. none of this excuses the act of that soldier and the proof positive that isr. have a far higher standard of morality is that virtually none of them would EVER try justifying such an action while many pal. and their supporters wont condemn in a clear voice terr. acts that kill innocent civilans including children).
Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2004, 10:55:53 PM »
see this is the stuff that dont even know what to say.  the physical land was termed palestine then and now israel.  i wrote that quite clearly when i referred to it (isr/pal) but the PALESTINIANS --a very diff thing even though the word sounds similar--did not exist as they do today.  sorry, sometimes the details do matter 

(of course this post shouldnt allow all the central points made in the previous post(s) to be ignored).