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Author Topic: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army  (Read 2926 times)

amarain

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2004, 08:39:26 PM »
What is e/t? I don't understand your first sentence (I'm not trying to be confrontational, I really don't understand it).

Anyway, I do believe that this particular example is in fact, one of many, many similar stories. If it were an isolated incident, I might feel differently, but this sort of thing has been going on for decades. If you honestly believe that this is a rare occurence, you need to open your eyes and pay attention to what is really going on.

But leaving all of that aside and assuming that it is true and acceptable for children to be killed in conflict, the fact of the matter is that a girl was brought down, then shot multiple times at point blank range and this man emptied a machine gun clip into her. There is no possible way he was in danger from her. It wasn't an accident or an unfortunate byproduct of war - it was cold blooded murder and that deserves more than a reprimand. (Incidentally, he wasn't even reprimanded for that, he was reprimanded for having poor relations with his subordinates).

Just because the Palestinian Authority is worse does not make it OK for Israel to do terrible things, especially when Israel is the one that is held up to be some sort of shining beacon of democracy.  Israel is a stable society, with a functioning government, an infrastructure, an economy. The Palestinians have none of that (whether that's Arafat's fault or Israel's or whoever's, it's unfair to blame the entire Palestinian population for it), so it is a bit unreasonable to expect the same standards from their respective justice systems.

By the way, I personally have no dog in this fight. I'm not Jewish, I'm not Arab, I have no particular ties to either side. I just chose a long time ago to educate myself about what's going on, and I continue to seek out unbiased, or at least balanced information. I read the BBC, CNN, the Jerusalem Post, Arab News, a number of sources to try to get all sides. And in doing so, I've arrived at the opinions that I hold on this issue. I don't appreciate your calling me closed minded (or at least not open minded) just because I don't agree with you.

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2004, 09:12:14 PM »
sorry for the notation (e/t meant everything).

reading your post it is clear you are confusing, by accident or not, the two events. 
regarding the first one--it is clear the pal. put the children in the line of fire. it is horrific, you're just blaming the wrong side. 
the second incident is awful, i think i've said it more than a half dozen times and no, it does not often happen.  when it does, unlike on pal. side, the isr. do hold them accountable.

a few pts.

"Just because the Palestinian Authority is worse does not make it OK for Israel to do terrible things, especially when Israel is the one that is held up to be some sort of shining beacon of democracy.  Israel is a stable society, with a functioning government, an infrastructure, an economy. The Palestinians have none of that (whether that's Arafat's fault or Israel's or whoever's, it's unfair to blame the entire Palestinian population for it), so it is a bit unreasonable to expect the same standards from their respective justice systems."

this is where your faulty approach stems from.  you've twisted the entire thing around.  you say because isr. has a deomcracy (granted it's flaws, though every nation has flaws) amidst awful and repressive dictator-like run cntrys and because they have taken the higher moral ground and produced a more civilized nation you expect MORE out of them.  when they are even on par with the pal. they should be blamed MORE.  Look, of course not every pal. is to blame. but saying that because the pal. auth. is so corrupt that isr. is to blame for the pal. problems is absurd.
that's the implications of your statements.

"By the way, I personally have no dog in this fight. I'm not Jewish, I'm not Arab, I have no particular ties to either side. I just chose a long time ago to educate myself about what's going on, and I continue to seek out unbiased, or at least balanced information. I read the BBC, CNN, the Jerusalem Post, Arab News, a number of sources to try to get all sides. And in doing so, I've arrived at the opinions that I hold on this issue. I don't appreciate your calling me closed minded (or at least not open minded) just because I don't agree with you."

i'm not judging you by what you are--i dont know or care about your ethnicity or rel. beliefs.  i'm judging you by what you write. and you write in a manner that really skews the entire issue.
if all you meant to say was "this isr. soldier shot a lil' girl to death, how awful" i would respond
a) yes awful
b) reality is when write that alone, it can have implications beyond it.
but you went even further, whether you meant to or not.

not trying to attack you, but when i see postings like the one you wrote, it really makes my stomach turn b/c the facts and implications of the facts chosen to be presented paint such a skewed picture.

TrojanChispas

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2004, 09:25:55 PM »
ok but WHY did he have to empty a mag into a dead body? for that matter why did he need to shoot a 13 year old wounded/dead girl in the head?

im jewish but i am outraged by this officer's actions
Arab Majority May Not Stay Forever Silent
http://www.nysun.com/article/36110?page_no=1

amarain

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2004, 09:56:53 PM »
OK, you're right, I was mixing up, or rather sort of combining the two different events - that wasn't really intentional.  The children in the crossfire does happen more often, although I think it is quite a stretch to say that a girl shot in the head while sitting at her desk in a classroom, or a girl also shot in the head at home baking bread in her kitchen were intentionally put in the line of fire (both of these incidents happened in the past week or two). I'm not denying that it does happen, but it's not fair to say that whenever a child is killed in the crossfire, the person shooting isn't to blame, it must have been that someone put them there to be killed and make Israel look bad. At any rate, I was mostly talking about the first incident, the one in the initial post. I find it repulsive that that man is not being held responsible for what he did.

I do, in fact, expect more out of a stable democracy than a chaotic society that is basically not governed at all. Israel has the ability to make a coherent foreign policy and carry it out with one of the strongest militaries in the world and the backing of the world's only remaining superpower. The Palestinians are an occupied people who are at a major disadvantage in this conflict - that is undeniable. Do you really think that Hamas would choose suicide bombers and crude rockets if they had their choice of American military technology? I'm not saying that somehow murdering people with a Qassam rocket is more justifiable than murdering them with an Apache helicopter (killing civilians is killing civilians, I don't care how you do it), but simply that it is an unevenly matched fight.

I also take issue with your statement that Israel has somehow taken "the higher moral ground."  I really just don't see that at all here.

There is so much more to say here, but I'm tired and have work to do, so I'm going to leave this discussion now. 

But has anyone here seen the movie "The Battle of Algiers"? Fascinating movie, and although it's about Algeria, deals with a lot of the same issues and contains some very interesting parallels to the Israeli/Palestinian situation.

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #24 on: October 19, 2004, 12:53:52 AM »
"OK, you're right, I was mixing up, or rather sort of combining the two different events - that wasn't really intentional.  The children in the crossfire does happen more often, although I think it is quite a stretch to say that a girl shot in the head while sitting at her desk in a classroom, or a girl also shot in the head at home baking bread in her kitchen were intentionally put in the line of fire (both of these incidents happened in the past week or two). I'm not denying that it does happen, but it's not fair to say that whenever a child is killed in the crossfire, the person shooting isn't to blame, it must have been that someone put them there to be killed and make Israel look bad."

i'm not saying every time it intentional--i'm saying you (and i) do not know. until you have a reason to believe it was one way or the other how can u assume?  they clearly do it often--it's been videotaped for goodness sakes.  you want to claim it not always the case, could be, but what do you think was going on in this particular case? do you think they just randomly started shooting at the school?  again, you may believe this, but hopefully wont come to such an odd conclusion without reason.

"I do, in fact, expect more out of a stable democracy than a chaotic society that is basically not governed at all. Israel has the ability to make a coherent foreign policy and carry it out with one of the strongest militaries in the world and the backing of the world's only remaining superpower. The Palestinians are an occupied people who are at a major disadvantage in this conflict - that is undeniable. Do you really think that Hamas would choose suicide bombers and crude rockets if they had their choice of American military technology? I'm not saying that somehow murdering people with a Qassam rocket is more justifiable than murdering them with an Apache helicopter (killing civilians is killing civilians, I don't care how you do it), but simply that it is an unevenly matched fight."

here's where we get into the issue of how much u really know about what goes on.  let me ask you something.  a)  how much money do you think the pal. auth. has?
b) ur apparently unaware of how great an infrastructure Hamas has.  they just put an obscene amount of their funds toward terrorism as opposed to building an infrastructre.  c)  all the surrounding arab nations, they really dont even mince words about it.  how much money do you see them investing into building a true infrastructure within the pal. communities?

"I also take issue with your statement that Israel has somehow taken "the higher moral ground."  I really just don't see that at all here. "

if you even follow the situation a little (and you say to follow it quite closely) you couldnt say this.  you've granted isr. has a democracy.  that means ppl of all faith live there. women not discriminated against.  political beliefs are expressed openly as opposed to in pal. auth and many neighboring cntrys where killed if dissent.  (btw arabs there do NOT want to live under pal. rule in general because have better lives under isr. reign).  i could go on and on--but how, with just these facts alone--could u say otherwise.  i'm sorry to say many ppl think like you--but there is no rationale way to defend it.



amarain

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #25 on: October 19, 2004, 09:48:54 AM »
I'm only going to address this one point because it's all I have time for at the moment:

"how much money do you think the pal. auth. has?
b) ur apparently unaware of how great an infrastructure Hamas has.  they just put an obscene amount of their funds toward terrorism as opposed to building an infrastructre.  c)  all the surrounding arab nations, they really dont even mince words about it.  how much money do you see them investing into building a true infrastructure within the pal. communities?"


I know that Arafat has an incredible amount of money and that he is horribly corrupt. He is also the largest single employer in the area. It's ridiculous. Hamas is an organization with a particular goal, and it uses immoral means to obtain that goal. It also is pretty much the only reliable provider of most human services in the area such as schools. I am aware that other Arab nations are not investing in the Palestinian areas either. But this is not their responsibility - why should they be obligated to provide for the Palestinian people? It's like saying that the US is not doing enough about Canadian poverty.

But all of this is beside the point. The point is that Israel is maintaining an illegal occupation with terrible violations of human rights virtually every day, and it is not being held accountable for it, and instead actually receives immense support from the US. To say "well Arab governments are bad" is a red herring and avoids the issue. This is not about Arab governments, this is about what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

(about the 'intentional' remark, I meant that I did not intentionally mix up the issues, not that the shootings were or were not intentional. It's pretty obvious that in that one case, it was indeed intentional. As for the others, I do not know)

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #26 on: October 19, 2004, 05:51:04 PM »
"I know that Arafat has an incredible amount of money and that he is horribly corrupt. He is also the largest single employer in the area. It's ridiculous. Hamas is an organization with a particular goal, and it uses immoral means to obtain that goal. It also is pretty much the only reliable provider of most human services in the area such as schools."
if you're aware of all this then how can you blame isr. for their plight??

more incredible, you write...

"I am aware that other Arab nations are not investing in the Palestinian areas either. But this is not their responsibility - why should they be obligated to provide for the Palestinian people? It's like saying that the US is not doing enough about Canadian poverty.""

so other arab nations are not responsible or pal. leadership spending BILLIONS on terrorism and on themselves in bank accounts, but isr. is???

also, YES they have a moral obligation to help.  are you suggesting an isolationist approach?  do you think the US should not help any country around the world, be it africa or elsewhere?  these arab nations speak as though they care for the pal. but the only actions they do are try to have sanctions against isr. and promote terr. within their own areas that will go and inflame the situation in isr.

"But all of this is beside the point. The point is that Israel is maintaining an illegal occupation with terrible violations of human rights virtually every day,"

WHOA??!?!! You def. cannot be well informed and say such a thing.  that is classical rhetoric.  illegal occupation?  that's just a term ppl bashing isr. love to use.
how is it illegal?  based on what?
human rights violations every day???? what do you just watch bbc and pal. sources non-stop??? what do you think goes on in 100's of countries NOT trying to defend themselves every day.  i want you to list for me now those gross violations that happen to pal. by isr. almost every day.  if you bring up actions that are in self defense you have more to be ashamed of than i imagined.

"(about the 'intentional' remark, I meant that I did not intentionally mix up the issues, not that the shootings were or were not intentional. It's pretty obvious that in that one case, it was indeed intentional. As for the others, I do not know)"
CONGRATULATIONS!! that was my whole pt.  1) one action you sighted was in fact awful, but isolated. 2) the other , YOU DONT KNOW THE CIRCUMSTANCES, WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE...yet intentionally or unintentionally, judge the case you did.

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #27 on: October 19, 2004, 05:53:43 PM »
i wanted this to be in a seperate post so it stands out. 

amarain--it seems to me from what you have written that at your core you are a good hearted and well intentioned individual.  perhaps that is why it pains me even more to see you write what you do.  when it comes down to it, hopefully you'll see that you have put isr. to a standard beyond any ever placed on any other nation in history.  i'm sure you understand the implications of such standards.

amarain

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #28 on: October 20, 2004, 11:49:22 AM »
amelus, if you don't believe that Israel is carrying out an illegal occupation, or at least violating human rights frequently, then there is no point arguing with you. I only wish to hold Israel to the same standard as all nations should be held - for example, the Geneva Convention.

If anyone else wants to jump into this discussion, then I'd be glad to rejoin, but we're not going to get anywhere like this, and it's really just depressing, to tell you the truth, to see injustice excused away for no reason.

amelus

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Re: Shooting child with machine gun is OK, says Israeli army
« Reply #29 on: October 20, 2004, 04:44:13 PM »
"amelus, if you don't believe that Israel is carrying out an illegal occupation, or at least violating human rights frequently, then there is no point arguing with you. I only wish to hold Israel to the same standard as all nations should be held - for example, the Geneva Convention."

does that mean you wont answer my question?  this is one of the greatest myths perpetuated in this conflict.  NO WHERE--not even the UN (please tell me you dont honestly consider the UN nuetral on this matter) resolutions say the land is NOT isr. it says explicitly it is DISPUTED TERR. that means unclear.  and of course if you knew how isr. ended up with that land, well i think you'd find it absurd that it not totally isr.
so i ask you--how did isr. aquire that land?

could you try listing spec. what isr. does that they violate so awfully that other nations dont?  (same standard huh?)


"and it's really just depressing, to tell you the truth, to see injustice excused away for no reason"

well i dont know if that is a diversionary tactic or not--but as i said b/4 i only hold you to what you say.  you say i've excused injustice for no reason
what injustice have i excused?

i ask you to show me where the land is clearly pal.  so site the source for me--dont start diverting it through such ad-hom. attacks.