Law School Discussion

Poll

yay or nay?  yes, this is heteronormative, i know i know.

a. yay
46 (74.2%)
b. nay
16 (25.8%)

Total Members Voted: 61

Girl taking guy's last name after marriage

Astro

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #320 on: April 11, 2008, 10:28:46 PM »

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.

xdhbc

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #321 on: April 11, 2008, 10:39:23 PM »
I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.

Perhaps she can provide examples of matriarchies in which this was the case.

mbw

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #322 on: April 11, 2008, 10:42:52 PM »

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.


Et tu, J?

Matriarchal Society: Definition and Theory
By Heide Goettner-Abendroth

Introduction:

The relationship between Modern Matriarchal Studies and the Gift Paradigm

There are important analogies between modern matriarchal studies and the gift paradigm.

The subject of matriarchal studies is the investigation and presentation of non-patriarchal societies of past and present. Even today there are enclaves of societies with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, America and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy where women rule -as it is often commonly believed -instead, they are all egalitarian societies, without exception. This means they do not know hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other. They are societies free of domination, but they still have their regulations. And this is the fact that makes them so attractive in any search for a new philosophy, to create a just society.


From http://www.gift-economy.com/athanor/athanor_005.html. That was a quick google.  I can provide a much more detailed bibliography if you'd like.

xdhbc

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #323 on: April 11, 2008, 10:57:08 PM »
I have heard that the organization of hierarchies is in and of itself a male-driven activity.  That's probably something of an overgeneralization, but still.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #324 on: April 12, 2008, 06:57:46 AM »

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.


Et tu, J?

Matriarchal Society: Definition and Theory
By Heide Goettner-Abendroth

Introduction:

The relationship between Modern Matriarchal Studies and the Gift Paradigm

There are important analogies between modern matriarchal studies and the gift paradigm.

The subject of matriarchal studies is the investigation and presentation of non-patriarchal societies of past and present. Even today there are enclaves of societies with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, America and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy where women rule -as it is often commonly believed -instead, they are all egalitarian societies, without exception. This means they do not know hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other. They are societies free of domination, but they still have their regulations. And this is the fact that makes them so attractive in any search for a new philosophy, to create a just society.


From http://www.gift-economy.com/athanor/athanor_005.html. That was a quick google.  I can provide a much more detailed bibliography if you'd like.

Why would you even call an egalitarian society a matriarchy?  It seems to me that they are two different things. 


Main Entry:
    ma·tri·arch
Pronunciation:
    \ˈmā-trē-ˌärk\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1606

: a woman who rules or dominates a family, group, or state; specifically : a mother who is head and ruler of her family and descendants




Main Entry:
    egal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation:
    \-ē-ə-ˌni-zəm\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1905

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic rights and privileges 2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

www.m-w.com

xdhbc

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #325 on: April 12, 2008, 07:10:02 AM »

Matriarchy and patriarchy are not two sides of the same coin.  Patriarchy subjugates non-males, reducing their power; matriarchy asserts that women have equal status and power, though they might have different gender roles from men.


Hmm...  I don't know if I agree.  I think this definition is a bit self-serving.  It's a little too rosy. 

I was thinking the same thing - In a matriarchy, by definition, women have more power than men.

Perhaps what she meant was that in a society run primarily by men, women are subjugated, while in a society run primarily by women, men would have equal status as women.  I'm not saying that's what I think; I'm just suggesting it as a possibility for what MBW meant.

I'm pretty sure that's what she meant.  Which is why I said I think the definition is self-serving and a little too rosy.


Et tu, J?

Matriarchal Society: Definition and Theory
By Heide Goettner-Abendroth

Introduction:

The relationship between Modern Matriarchal Studies and the Gift Paradigm

There are important analogies between modern matriarchal studies and the gift paradigm.

The subject of matriarchal studies is the investigation and presentation of non-patriarchal societies of past and present. Even today there are enclaves of societies with matriarchal patterns in Asia, Africa, America and Oceania. None of these is a mere reversal of patriarchy where women rule -as it is often commonly believed -instead, they are all egalitarian societies, without exception. This means they do not know hierarchies, classes and the domination of one gender by the other. They are societies free of domination, but they still have their regulations. And this is the fact that makes them so attractive in any search for a new philosophy, to create a just society.


From http://www.gift-economy.com/athanor/athanor_005.html. That was a quick google.  I can provide a much more detailed bibliography if you'd like.

Why would you even call an egalitarian society a matriarchy?  It seems to me that they are two different things. 


Main Entry:
    ma·tri·arch
Pronunciation:
    \ˈmā-trē-ˌärk\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1606

: a woman who rules or dominates a family, group, or state; specifically : a mother who is head and ruler of her family and descendants




Main Entry:
    egal·i·tar·i·an·ism
Pronunciation:
    \-ē-ə-ˌni-zəm\
Function:
    noun
Date:
    1905

1 : a belief in human equality especially with respect to social, political, and economic rights and privileges 2 : a social philosophy advocating the removal of inequalities among people

www.m-w.com

Maybe because the society that's described by your definition of "matriarchy" does not actually exist?  It might be that certain societies were called matriarchies solely because of their lack of patriarchal organization, but that they were just "egalitarian" societies all along.

mbw

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #326 on: April 12, 2008, 08:03:22 AM »
^ (don't feel like quoting everything before coffee)

Bingo.  And because some societies, upon first glance, had features which made them outwardly look "matriarchal", such as being matrilineal and/or matrilocal, so they were automatically categorized as such. 

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #327 on: April 12, 2008, 10:21:19 AM »
^ (don't feel like quoting everything before coffee)

Bingo.  And because some societies, upon first glance, had features which made them outwardly look "matriarchal", such as being matrilineal and/or matrilocal, so they were automatically categorized as such. 

Why would you continue to refer to them that way, if you know that's not what they were?  It's confusing and misleading.  I would think that, at least since the time it was decided that what you just said was true, this would be one of the first things that someone would clarify in a discussion about this issue (especially when dealing with people who would not have been expected to have previously given it much thought).

Edit:  I'm not trying to be a male private part.  I'm really curious. 

Jolie Was Here

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #328 on: April 12, 2008, 11:18:57 AM »
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #329 on: April 12, 2008, 12:09:05 PM »
Wowza.  I just read the whole. damn. thread.  Y'all have covered it all without me, but I just wanted to share that in reading, I realized that I've never ever had a bonbon.  (Or a baby, for that matter.)  What have I been doing with my time?

<--- wails at the cold and lonely desperation of her empty life, finds solace on the internet.

I hear bonbons are better, but I've never tried a baby with chocolate, so....