Law School Discussion

Poll

yay or nay?  yes, this is heteronormative, i know i know.

a. yay
46 (74.2%)
b. nay
16 (25.8%)

Total Members Voted: 61

Girl taking guy's last name after marriage

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #150 on: April 10, 2008, 11:36:03 AM »
Let's come to an understanding so this thread doesn't get derailed.  Human acts are selfish.  Get over it.

Your insistence on coming to an understanding on this is selfish.



Get over it.

Astro

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #151 on: April 10, 2008, 11:36:48 AM »

Wow. That's just screwed up beyond words.

You're saying that it's actually impossible for me to be a better parent, based totally on genetics, even though I've seen evidence to the contrary?

Come on.  I said that there were some exceptions. But generally, I don't care if it's genetics, or experience or tradition.  If men and women suddenly switched roles you'd have a huge increase of crap-filled diapers, and toddler concussions.

Wouldn't it be possible that this is a result of that very tradition you refer to (read: reinforced gender roles) that provides that experience, and not simply that she has XX and I have XY?

Sure, assuming we're not like every other animal on the planet...


1.  Wrong argument.  There are many exceptions to this "rule".
2.  We're not like every other animal on the planet.

mbw

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #152 on: April 10, 2008, 11:38:47 AM »

AAAHHH I was getting called on in Ks! Don't hate me!

that was mighty selfish of you

It's because I don't currently parent anyone except my boyfriend.

because he's so genetically incapable of caretaking that he can't take care of himself?

Don't tell him I told you!

I wouldn't dream of it - it's not as if he would respect my opinion anyway, since I'm not a caretaker myself. Except of the carefully nurtured mess in my apartment.

Oh, so that's why I feel like I've got forty rugrats, not just four.  And I thought I was just an incompetent parent.

<---not much of a housekeeper.  Must have misplaced that feminine gene somewhere along the way.  Maybe with single socks.

TNGA60

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #153 on: April 10, 2008, 11:39:10 AM »
As to the a-hole with the palm tree 'tar and the sister he's ashamed of: You say she made mistakes, I translated this to you thinking she screwed up. Tomato, tomato.

I never said she made mistakes. You should try reading my posts more slowly. It is not in there. Not once.

Prestjesus

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #154 on: April 10, 2008, 11:40:17 AM »
What about my spiritual wives, do they take my last name? I mean most are pretty young, so I donít know if I want my name attached to them for, you know, raids on our compound purposes, polygamy charges and such things. Besides giving them my name just personalizes them rather than making them the chattel they are in gods eyes.

I knew it was only a matter of time before you showed up.

I was busy taming my uppity women folk, when I noticed the crufix in the sky calling me twords this thread. I'm here now, so no fear.

Astro

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #155 on: April 10, 2008, 11:40:31 AM »
I do not in fact want to be a mommy.

When I hear a baby crying, I get the urge to shake something.

Good maternal instincts there, eh?

Furthermore, not wanting any spawn of mine in daycare (which, imo, doesn't have to be bad) doesn't mean that I would need to stay home and care for it.

Okay, thanks for the honesty.
You don't want kids.
I respect your opinions but I don't think you know what the hell you're talking about.
If you don't want kids then your arguments are based on what is good for you.  I'm making arguments based on what I believe will be the best for my future children. 


I'm trying not to get involved, but seriously.

This is not your argument.  Your argument is about what's good and proper in society.  Don't make me quote you.

Astro

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #156 on: April 10, 2008, 11:41:17 AM »

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.



If this is true, how do you know whether it's cause or effect?

mbw

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #157 on: April 10, 2008, 11:44:10 AM »

I'll throw out the caveat that I wonder if the forced career v. family dichotomy is entirely a result of a lack of respect for parenting as "women's work" (although there is obviously a lack of respect for it on those grounds).  It seems plausible to me that part of the reason that policies that would remedy this aren't put in place is in order to perpetuate the idea that women belong in the home -- by making it impossible for women to balance work in family, those who would have women maintain an inferior social role are able to point to evidence saying that we're all doomed if women work, because they won't be able to raise children properly.

That patriarchy *&^% is insidious, ain't it.

We should add that there's a class component to all this as well, 'cause you know, poor women have almost always worked out of the home, mothers or not.  It's only now that rich and middle class men see the mothers of their children going out to work that it's now "the end of civilization as well know it", or something like that.

BearlyLegal

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #158 on: April 10, 2008, 11:45:17 AM »
LOL, another one of these fun discussions! Wee!

A few points:

1) In re: last names - My mom and dad didn't share last names. I don't think it affected me in any way. Oh noes! You are named after your mom rather than your dad? Who cares, really? If the name isn't Kaka, DeShawn, Igor or Cletus, there won't be any real social impact on the child.

2) IrrX is 100% on point. Relationship standards need to be set by the people inside the relationship. the outside world can bite me. If you have 2 traditional people who grew up in happy irish-catholic homes who want to continue their "paternalistic" traditions, we have no business stopping them. OTOH if you are a a member of a progressive/feminist relationship, hyphenate away. It's all good. Naming conventions are what the individuals inside the relationship make of them. Our external opinions shouldn't matter at all. It's more important to have a happy, functioning couple raising children than one who happens to follow some silly normative social code (whether that code be paternalistic or feminist) in re: naming conventions.

3) There is another macro/micro argument going on here that some of you guys are missing, IMO. Look, males as a macro social group commit more crime, are more likely to drop out of school, are more likely to to make impulsive decisions, etc. These things are factual, and there are significant amounts of empirical data that support them.

Why the statistics are what they are, I don't know. Could be genetics, or could be how we raise boys. But we find ourselves in a situation, where on a macro level, males as a group seem to be less socially responsible than females.

Now, that doesn't mean that some individual men may not be WAY better equipped to be a primary parent than their female partners - just that taken in aggregate, Women > Men at parenting.

This doesn't mean that men shouldn't take an active role in parenting, and it certainly doesn't mean that in some relationships, men shouldn't take on the primary parental responsibilities - again, this should be determined at a micro, relationship-by-relationship level, and normative assumptions shouldn't apply when something as important as the upbringing of a child is concerned.

4) I think I am gonna stop getting mad at Dash. She's hella abrasive when she posts,  but I think that's just how she relates to people (at least on a message board) that she doesn't agree with. I used to be offended that my respectful posts would be answered with eyerolling, sarcasm, namecalling, etc., but really I don't think she's all that bad once you get past  all that. She's just a very opinionated liberal who sticks to her guns and doesn't take poo.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #159 on: April 10, 2008, 11:47:10 AM »

I'll throw out the caveat that I wonder if the forced career v. family dichotomy is entirely a result of a lack of respect for parenting as "women's work" (although there is obviously a lack of respect for it on those grounds).  It seems plausible to me that part of the reason that policies that would remedy this aren't put in place is in order to perpetuate the idea that women belong in the home -- by making it impossible for women to balance work in family, those who would have women maintain an inferior social role are able to point to evidence saying that we're all doomed if women work, because they won't be able to raise children properly.

That patriarchy *&^% is insidious, ain't it.

We should add that there's a class component to all this as well, 'cause you know, poor women have almost always worked out of the home, mothers or not.  It's only now that rich and middle class men see the mothers of their children going out to work that it's now "the end of civilization as well know it", or something like that.

True. To all of it.

Also, there are really important class components to our ideas of fathering.

Really interesting: Robert Griswold, "Patriarchy and the Politics of Fatherhood, 1970-1993," in Fatherhood in America, pp. 243-69

(sorry for the unbluebooked citation)