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Author Topic: Vault, Leiter, USNews  (Read 1253 times)

OnTheRoad

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Vault, Leiter, USNews
« on: April 08, 2008, 12:21:17 PM »
Wanted to post this since we're thinking about the USNews rankings. Especially if you're new to this whole process, here's a chance to look at the rankings in a slightly different way. No matter what anyone says, the USNWR rankings are around and will continue to be. Brian Leiter is the traditional alternative to them, and I think that Vault's new rankings make a good case for joining him. I find both of these rankings very useful because they are simple and clear. Leiter simply ranks the schools by their 75th percentile GPA and LSAT score, that is, who gets the (numerically) best students. Vault surveys legal professionals to ask them what schools produce the best lawyers. Hope this is useful.

Leiter: http://www.leiterrankings.com/students/2008student_quality.shtml

Vault: http://www.vault.com/lawschool/top25/


Leiter:

Rank by Average of 75th/25th LSAT

1   Yale University   
2   Harvard University   
3   Columbia University   
4   New York University   
5   University of Chicago   
6   Stanford University   
7   Georgetown University   
8   University of Virginia   
9   Northwestern University   
10   University of Michigan, Ann Arbor   
11   University of Pennsylvania   
12   Duke University   
13   Cornell University   
14   University of California, Berkeley   
15   University of California, Los Angeles   
16   Vanderbilt University   
17   University of Southern California   
18   George Washington University   
19   University of Texas, Austin   
20   University of Notre Dame   
21   Boston University   
    Fordham University   
23   University of Minnesota, Twin Cities   
24   Washington University, St. Louis   
25   Brigham Young University   
26   Cardozo Law School/Yeshiva University   
    Emory University   
28   Washington & Lee University   
29   Boston College   
30   Brooklyn Law School    
    University of Illinois, Urbana-Champaign   
32   University of Maryland, Baltimore    
33   University of California, Hastings   
34   College of William & Mary   
35   George Mason University   
    University of Alabama   
    University of Colorado, Boulder   
38   Wake Forest University    
39   Temple University    
    University of Georgia    


Vault:

1 Stanford University Law School
2 University of Michigan - Ann Arbor Law School
3 New York University School of Law
4 University of Virginia School of Law
5 University of Chicago Law School
6 Harvard Law School
7 Columbia Law School
8 University of California, Berkeley - Boalt Hall School of Law
9 Northwestern University School of Law
10 Yale Law School
11 Vanderbilt University Law School
12 Duke University Law School
13 University of Pennsylvania Law School
14 Indiana University School of Law - Bloomington
15 Cornell University Law School
16 University of Minnesota - Twin Cities Law School
17 Georgetown University Law Center
18 University of California, Los Angeles School of Law
19 University of Iowa College of Law
20 George Washington University Law School
21 Boston University School of Law
22 University of Texas at Austin School of Law
23 University of North Carolina - Chapel Hill School of Law
24 Emory University School of Law
25 University of Wisconsin Law School



(Just noticed that there's only two schools in the top five in both rankings.)

botbot

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #1 on: April 08, 2008, 01:03:07 PM »
The USNews does a pretty good job mirroring the career opportunities at the schools, why are we looking for alternatives again?

JeNeSaisLaw

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #2 on: April 08, 2008, 01:18:35 PM »
botbot: Assuming we agree that the USN&WR rankings are not perfect, it makes sense to look for alternatives for what I see as two good reasons. 1) Something that's not perfect is in need of a supplement and 2) alternatives point out that they are not perfect and that somebody is trying to remedy them.
LSN
Vanderbilt Class of 2011

NYU2011

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #3 on: April 08, 2008, 01:25:39 PM »
botbot: Assuming we agree that the USN&WR rankings are not perfect, it makes sense to look for alternatives for what I see as two good reasons. 1) Something that's not perfect is in need of a supplement and 2) alternatives point out that they are not perfect and that somebody is trying to remedy them.


So NYU is the only school that is in the top 5 in all three rankings...that is interesting.

botbot

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2008, 01:50:43 PM »
botbot: Assuming we agree that the USN&WR rankings are not perfect, it makes sense to look for alternatives for what I see as two good reasons. 1) Something that's not perfect is in need of a supplement and 2) alternatives point out that they are not perfect and that somebody is trying to remedy them.

Sorry, I should have said - why are we looking at these worthless alternatives.

OnTheRoad

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #5 on: April 08, 2008, 01:58:55 PM »
botbot: Assuming we agree that the USN&WR rankings are not perfect, it makes sense to look for alternatives for what I see as two good reasons. 1) Something that's not perfect is in need of a supplement and 2) alternatives point out that they are not perfect and that somebody is trying to remedy them.

Sorry, I should have said - why are we looking at these worthless alternatives.

Because I'm bored at work?

OnTheRoad

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2008, 02:01:23 PM »
botbot: Assuming we agree that the USN&WR rankings are not perfect, it makes sense to look for alternatives for what I see as two good reasons. 1) Something that's not perfect is in need of a supplement and 2) alternatives point out that they are not perfect and that somebody is trying to remedy them.

Sorry, I should have said - why are we looking at these worthless alternatives.

Actually if that's a serious question, I think that USNews takes into account some stuff that I don't think is important at all like expenditure, bar passage, employment at graduation, etc. So I prefer to look at something that pares down the USNWR to the stuff I'm interested in: student quality and reputation. It's more relevant to me and important to my decision-making process.

upgrade

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2008, 02:09:43 PM »
Actually if that's a serious question, I think that USNews takes into account some stuff that I don't think is important at all like expenditure, bar passage, employment at graduation, etc. So I prefer to look at something that pares down the USNWR to the stuff I'm interested in: student quality and reputation. It's more relevant to me and important to my decision-making process.

For most people, employment at graduation is the most important metric.  Perhaps the lack of classification as to the type of jobs the graduates secured is why you feel it is unimportant.  Are there other reasons?

OnTheRoad

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #8 on: April 08, 2008, 02:13:56 PM »
Actually if that's a serious question, I think that USNews takes into account some stuff that I don't think is important at all like expenditure, bar passage, employment at graduation, etc. So I prefer to look at something that pares down the USNWR to the stuff I'm interested in: student quality and reputation. It's more relevant to me and important to my decision-making process.

For most people, employment at graduation is the most important metric.  Perhaps the lack of classification as to the type of jobs the graduates secured is why you feel it is unimportant.  Are there other reasons?

It's a personal thing, and obviously employment at graduation may be important to people looking for different things. But within the top 25 schools (which these rankings are concerned with) I have no doubt that everyone will get fine jobs. Someone going to northwestern doesn't have a different chance of getting a decent job as someone going to yale: it's 100% in both cases. If the survey looked at percentage of people getting market rate jobs two or three years out, I might be interested, but this would just give a huge advantage to the top schools that feed into biglaw jobs. So as someone looking at the top 25 schools, I have zero interest in how many people are employed at graduation.

OnTheRoad

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Re: Vault, Leiter, USNews
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2008, 03:26:35 PM »
I wrote bob morse (the usnews guy) to tell him I think he should drop the employment data. He begged to differ.