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Author Topic: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?  (Read 60807 times)

dashrashi

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #140 on: April 06, 2008, 10:39:18 PM »
I am urging people to unpack stuff a little beyond "it's professional because it's professional." Why is that outfit, precisely that, considered "professional"? Was it anything else before it was "professional"? Was it only or primarily worn by certain groups? Which groups?

Etc. Come on, y'all. A little analysis is not that difficult.

ITA!

It's because we're smart. Duh. !

SMH @ "everyone else wears this business stuff too" W/O questioning discourse in which idea of "professionalism" arose and what dominating force propagated it


Theeeeere we go. I was having trouble getting it out. "Omigod, Obama wears a suit! So it's totally not worth thinking about!"
This sig kills fascists.

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Saw dashrashi's LSN site. Since she seems to use profanity, one could say that HYP does not necessarily mean class or refinement.

t...

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #141 on: April 06, 2008, 10:51:33 PM »
I believe I had this same argument (roughly) about standards of professionalism in SFLSD.

Also, lulz x 10 @ this:


This mode of dress, though it originates among anglo society, is accepted internationally by cultures that have nothing in common with the American culture as a symbol of status and class. Chinese businessmen dress like this. Russian businessmen dress like this. Indian businessmen dress like this. African buisinessmen dress like this. It is no longer native to the anglo culture. Assuming that the idea of having to dress in a mode that is considered professional around the world, regardless of culture, is somehow racist or prejudiciously advantages white people is silly. Even black american leaders (as pictured above) accept this mode of dress as "professional", not as "white".


Ask yourself why this dress is now the professional standard, and why other cultures are adopting it.

Hint: there is nothing inherent about a suit and tie that makes it more "professional" (or even functional) than any other mode of dress.

Quote
Cady on October 16, 2007, 10:41:52 PM

i rhink tyi'm inejying my fudgcicle too much

Quote
Huey on February 07, 2007, 11:15:32 PM

I went to a party in an apartment in a silo once.

NYU2011

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #142 on: April 06, 2008, 10:53:43 PM »
You simply sound ridiculous.  So you believe that if White people wore baggy pants in the past then it would be professional now? ::) As you mentioned earlier many many people wore suits in the past.  Why don't you take a step back and look at it, are you telling me a person in a suit does not look better and better able to handle things than someone in baggy pants?  It has nothing to do with the color of the skin of the people before.  It isn't like the President of Africa wears around baggy pants all the time either.  It just doesn't look very clean cut.

t...

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #143 on: April 06, 2008, 10:53:47 PM »
I believe I had this same argument (roughly) about standards of professionalism in SFLSD.

Also, lulz x 10 @ this:


This mode of dress, though it originates among anglo society, is accepted internationally by cultures that have nothing in common with the American culture as a symbol of status and class. Chinese businessmen dress like this. Russian businessmen dress like this. Indian businessmen dress like this. African buisinessmen dress like this. It is no longer native to the anglo culture. Assuming that the idea of having to dress in a mode that is considered professional around the world, regardless of culture, is somehow racist or prejudiciously advantages white people is silly. Even black american leaders (as pictured above) accept this mode of dress as "professional", not as "white".


Ask yourself why this dress is now the professional standard, and why other cultures are adopting it.

Hint: there is nothing inherent about a suit and tie that makes it more "professional" (or even functional) than any other mode of dress.
Quote
Cady on October 16, 2007, 10:41:52 PM

i rhink tyi'm inejying my fudgcicle too much

Quote
Huey on February 07, 2007, 11:15:32 PM

I went to a party in an apartment in a silo once.

BearlyLegal

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #144 on: April 06, 2008, 10:55:34 PM »
SMH @ "everyone else wears this business stuff too" W/O questioning discourse in which idea of "professionalism" arose and what dominating force propagated it

Like where I said it originated in Anglo culture, but has spread throughout the world to the point where it has become an internationally accepted standard of dress. Today, it is perpetuated by professionals EVERYWHERE regardless of the narrow American viewpoints. If you want to attribute every accepted standard of buisiness in the world to some vague notion of what is apparently a "white" conspiracy, feel free to do so, but I will feel free to go ahead and call you a racist.

I'm done with this.

My final points:

1) There is a significant macro progrem in inequality of means between racial groups.

2) AA is not the perfect, but the only practical solution to this problem, and should continue, despite any issues of insensitivity to micro issues.

3) On the micro level, breaking things down racially doesn't make sense. There are fabulously wealthy and socially privileged black people in this country, and obscenely poor and socially disadvantaged non-blacks.

4) By perpetuating false and toxic ideas such as "all whites are privileged", people oversimplify and poison the racial dialogue in this country.

5) Though the lack of racial parity is still a significant issue in the US, it is fortunately becoming better; and will hopefully one day dissapear.

6) Though socioeconomic and class-based parity in this country is far better than it is in the majority of the world; it is slowly and frighteningly becoming worse, across racial and ethnic lines.

7) I'm glad that we have a multiracial presidential candidate who can successfully recognize and address these complex issues, without infantilizing the debate.

8 ) I appreciate the viewpoints of those who stand by their opinions about the concept of "white privilege". I do understand where you are coming from, I just respectfully disagree.

9) Again, "white privilege" might benefit some or most whites, but does absolutely nothing for those whites who are not in the soceoeconomic position to actually take advantage of it.

And that's that. Some will agree with me, some will disagree. That's ok. It's a complex issue, and there is more than one legitimate lens to examine it under.

Edit: And to completely underscore why the concept of a historical "white" hegemony ignores the very real facts that many  white social groups have been treated no differently than blacks, I include this one last tidbit. I hope you give it at least a little bit of thought:

http://archive.salon.com/books/it/2000/06/15/white_slaves/

Astro

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #145 on: April 06, 2008, 11:12:55 PM »
You simply sound ridiculous.  So you believe that if White people wore baggy pants in the past then it would be professional now? ::) As you mentioned earlier many many people wore suits in the past.  Why don't you take a step back and look at it, are you telling me a person in a suit does not look better and better able to handle things than someone in baggy pants?  It has nothing to do with the color of the skin of the people before.  It isn't like the President of Africa wears around baggy pants all the time either.  It just doesn't look very clean cut.


Before contact and manipulation by European forces, the following was true:

1.  Professional/upper class Africans did not wear suits.
2.  Professional/upper class Asians did not wear suits.
3.  Professional/upper class Australasians did not wear suits.
4.  Professional/upper class Native Americans did not wear suits.
J, if you didn't bring enough penis for everyone, you shouldn't have brought any penis at all. 

Astro

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #146 on: April 06, 2008, 11:15:02 PM »
SMH @ "everyone else wears this business stuff too" W/O questioning discourse in which idea of "professionalism" arose and what dominating force propagated it

Like where I said it originated in Anglo culture, but has spread throughout the world to the point where it has become an internationally accepted standard of dress. Today, it is perpetuated by professionals EVERYWHERE regardless of the narrow American viewpoints. If you want to attribute every accepted standard of buisiness in the world to some vague notion of what is apparently a "white" conspiracy, feel free to do so, but I will feel free to go ahead and call you a racist.

I'm done with this.

My final points:

1) There is a significant macro progrem in inequality of means between racial groups.

2) AA is not the perfect, but the only practical solution to this problem, and should continue, despite any issues of insensitivity to micro issues.

3) On the micro level, breaking things down racially doesn't make sense. There are fabulously wealthy and socially privileged black people in this country, and obscenely poor and socially disadvantaged non-blacks.

4) By perpetuating false and toxic ideas such as "all whites are privileged", people oversimplify and poison the racial dialogue in this country.

5) Though the lack of racial parity is still a significant issue in the US, it is fortunately becoming better; and will hopefully one day dissapear.

6) Though socioeconomic and class-based parity in this country is far better than it is in the majority of the world; it is slowly and frighteningly becoming worse, across racial and ethnic lines.

7) I'm glad that we have a multiracial presidential candidate who can successfully recognize and address these complex issues, without infantilizing the debate.

8 ) I appreciate the viewpoints of those who stand by their opinions about the concept of "white privilege". I do understand where you are coming from, I just respectfully disagree.

9) Again, "white privilege" might benefit some or most whites, but does absolutely nothing for those whites who are not in the soceoeconomic position to actually take advantage of it.

And that's that. Some will agree with me, some will disagree. That's ok. It's a complex issue, and there is more than one legitimate lens to examine it under.

Edit: And to completely underscore why the concept of a historical "white" hegemony ignores the very real facts that many  white social groups have been treated no differently than blacks, I include this one last tidbit. I hope you give it at least a little bit of thought:

http://archive.salon.com/books/it/2000/06/15/white_slaves/

Thanks for this post.  This is what I was looking for.  I'll go through it a little later, but I'll say right now that I actually agree with a number of your points. 
J, if you didn't bring enough penis for everyone, you shouldn't have brought any penis at all. 

BearlyLegal

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #147 on: April 06, 2008, 11:24:29 PM »
Thanks for reading and criticizing. :)

devilishlyblue

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #148 on: April 06, 2008, 11:32:00 PM »
Hm.  This is not a rhetorical question.  Is it racist to expect waiters to speak English rather than Swahili?  I think the analogy holds: it is of European origin, became the "professional" standard (at least in the US) as a result of ... uh, racially disproportionate removal of specific cultural elements, but is not perfectly tied to actual "race" and can be alleviated by acquiring a new element.

Unlike a suit, in fact, learning to speak so-called standard English is not something that can be easily fixed.

In other words, I'm expanding on the discussion between Bears and DR here.  Just because something became dominant from a racist analysis, is it still racist?  Is it racist to say that baggy jeans are worse than a suit when (in our hypo) a black person can just put on a suit and remove the racism?  And if a white person can put on baggy jeans and create racism against himself?  Isn't racism supposed to be so insidious precisely because it's about factors beyond your control?

naturallybeyoutiful

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Re: Be honest WASPs: why does AA really bother you?
« Reply #149 on: April 06, 2008, 11:38:59 PM »
3) On the micro level, breaking things down racially doesn't make sense. There are fabulously wealthy and socially privileged black people in this country, and obscenely poor and socially disadvantaged non-blacks.
Breaking things down racially wouldn't make sense if racism only reared its ugly head when dealing with a certain subset of the black population.  Please don't make the mistake of assuming, however, that there is not some commonality between the experiences of even these two seemingly disparate groups, particularly as it relates to structural forces that work against people of color at every level of society.  The picture only becomes more complicated when the status of middle-class and working class blacks come into play.  Moreover, I find that many people are under the mistaken impression that black people live "chocolate-covered" lives of whatever life is like for whites of the same socioeconomic class.  This simply isn't the case, hasn't ever been the case, and--if blacks and whites don't find the courage to own up to our country's racist past and work together for real solutions--will never be the case!


4) By perpetuating false and toxic ideas such as "all whites are privileged", people oversimplify and poison the racial dialogue in this country.
I agree that the racial dialogue is sometimes oversimplified.  This does not, however, defeat the reality of privileges imbuing to white people by virtue of their whiteness.  I'd dare say that many of the aspects of life that you consider "normal" and "expected" are simply not true for others.  Sometimes, it can be a little like living in a foreign country -- what MLK callled "exile in [one's] own land."   Sure, some things have gotten better.  But that's because we've fought literally to the death to make them so!  Bottom line is, things are not equal!  Never have been.  Are not now.  This is simply the lived experience of whites AND blacks in this nation.  Wealthy white people may derive even more benefit from their whiteness than do poor whites, but it'd be incorrect to assume that poor whites thereby start at zero, so to speak.  Even poor whites enjoy advantages that, on average, still do not accrue to blacks of even a similar social status.  I'm not sure how we can ever solve some of the nation's problems if people refuse to admit this!

Furthermore, it would be helpful to reverse the oversimplification of the racial dialogue by defining the characteristics (e.g. earnings power, home ownership rates and the (sub)prime mortgage lending rates associated with them, higher education levels) behind each of the "comparable" sub-groups you reference -- middle-class blacks and middle class whites, for example.  I think people assume a parity that isn't there when making blanket assumptions of what blacks of a certain class do or not need.  Knee-jerk reactions in either direction are unfair, but particularly when they tend to ignore persistent disparities that this nation created by rule of law (de jure and de facto), tradition, and culture with devastating consequences for blacks in this nation -- free or slave, rich or poor!  (Where is my forty acres and a mule?!!?!  Plus interest!!!!  :( But I digress...)


5) Though the lack of racial parity is still a significant issue in the US, it is fortunately becoming better; and will hopefully one day dissapear.
Racism and race-based discrimination (which has, in turn, fueled blacks' economic "disadvantage") are cancers on the soul of this nation.  Always have been.  Wishful thinking and that dreaded idea of color-blindedness only serves to create a freeze-frame for the current state of things.  I want more!  I see no other feasible solution than both sides dealing with these issues across disciplines and head-on, in part by aggressively attacking the hidden assumptions, shameful history and enduring ramifications of generations of sin, slavery, and inhumanity!


6) Though socioeconomic and class-based parity in this country is far better than it is in the majority of the world; it is slowly and frighteningly becoming worse, across racial and ethnic lines.
Agreed!  Education plays an important role in perpetuating social inequality.  This is but one expression of racism in general, of course. In addition, personal choices and the exercise of responsibility and self-determination (or lack thereof) also play a part, too.  Clearly the solution to this issue is complex and multi-faceted.


9) Again, "white privilege" might benefit some or most whites, but does absolutely nothing for those whites who are not in the soceoeconomic position to actually take advantage of it.
Some who live on the other side of the color line, incl. myself, will disagree here. Talk to many poor whites and you find that they, too, have not had the good fortune of growing up in America without the tainting of race prejudice and its sundried social manifestations.  To say that poor whites get "absolutely nothing" in a society that still makes judgments about people based on the color of the skin flies in the face of history, logic, and lived experience!

My $0.02...
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