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Author Topic: Wayne State v. Michigan State  (Read 8510 times)

plex

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #30 on: April 23, 2008, 09:16:15 PM »
I believe there was only one female candidate for dean at MSU, and she did actually become the dean (with the usual 5-year stint agreement).

WSUAlum1

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #31 on: April 24, 2008, 12:05:05 AM »
Thx for the info.  That's what I thought.  If a dean had a choice bet MSU and WSU, and chose MSU, what does that tell you about the future of the 2 schools??

As for Wayne's new dean (who is apparently going to fix everything) see Kilroy55's post above at pg 2:

"Wayne State's new dean is coming from my law school.  He is a pompous, arrogant man.  I would avoid going anywhere where is he located."

sounds like a winner


WSUAlum1

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #32 on: April 24, 2008, 12:09:17 AM »

WSUalum2

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2008, 12:58:13 PM »
     The story of the WSU and MSU deans isn't as reported.  Wayne made an offer to Suellyn Scarnecchia (currently dean at New Mexico).  Scarnecchia turned it down, and withdrew from consideration at MSU, to become general counsel at the University of Michigan.  Then WSU hired Bob Ackerman (who withdrew from consideration at MSU to take the job).  Much later, MSU hired Joan Howarth, who has nothing in common with Scarnecchia except that they're both female.

     WSU1, I wish Colette Routel were sticking around too, but my point is that when a visitor who had signed up for a one-year stint leaves at the end of the year, that's not fodder for "OMG, look what bad shape they're in -- everyone is leaving."  People who sign up for one-year visits are *expected* to leave at the end of the year.  (The incoming labor law person, btw, is Bill Mateikis, and he seems pretty cool.)

WSUAlum1

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2008, 03:51:43 PM »
WSU2:

Thx for the update.  I knew our 1st dean candidate walked away from us, and also knew she had applied at MSU.  Thx for the clarification re where she went.

As for faculty running for the exits at wayne, they are, and anyone w/ ties to the school knows it.  There are plenty of open slots @ wayne, and the school can't fill them.  People are leaving faster than they can be replaced, and many who are leaving are v good (Litman, Moran, Bambauer and Davidoff, just to name a few.  Family law prof won't be far behind, of course.  If Hall and Peters are still there in 3 years, I'll buy you lunch anywhere you like).  It's true that wayne tries to get coverage by hiring 'people w/ a look' when they can't fill the slots w/ perm folks, but that just highlights the problem--they can't find people to come for good.  When the 'lookers' leave, that's still a slot they couldn't fill from a year or 2 b4, and have to try (probably in vain) to re-fill again.

I keep in close touch w/ several current students and faculty members.  (I hear the word 'demoralized' a lot.) Everyone is glad that we're TTT again, but we're a lot farther down the list than we were before the fall, and everyone knows it.  MSU is ahead of us, and that won't change.  UDM is getting great press b/c it is committed to teaching students how to practice law (nuts and bolts), and serving the community at the same time.  Check out their website, or just read the  News/Free Press.  Wayne has a v tiny clinical program, LW is only 2 semesters and ungraded (its 3 and graded at many schools), and there aren't enough pretrial ad courses to come close to making up the difference.  Wayne is offering a solid version of legal ed 2000, but it's now 2008.  It's time to get w/ the program (teaching practical skills), and wayne hasn't budged.  It has a great rep, much deserved in its day, but if you read the posts here and on other sites, you'll see that people are starting to see that the rep does not match the (current) reality

I spoke to a 3L last week who said this (paraphrase): When I came here, I thought I was coming to a school that was T3, about to go to T2 (that's what admissions told me).  I figured I could apply outside of Det from a T2.  It cost $10-12K less than the other schools in the state.  I had a 170 LSAT, and I turned down $ from MSU to come here.  Wayne jacked up the tuition as soon as I got here, we fell to T4, and even now we are behind MSU.  MSU has a better rep, more schools come to their OCI, both in and out of state.

WSU2--I'm glad you're still drinking the kool-aid.  But a lot of current students and recent alums are PISSED OFF. The school better recognize that

(If they weren't so pissed off, you might have scraped together the $ for that glittering new building by now.  If the shovels go in the ground by '09, you'll be lucky.)

I might add: the customer service complaints that have appeared on these boards for a long time are still here.  All that extra tuition ($7K in the last 3 years?  Maybe $8) hasn't changed any of that.  People still can't get their calls returned, or get answers to Qs, on and on.

Final point: I had a lot of complaints above, and the only one you disputed was (what you claimed was) a slight miscount in the # of profs leaving.  That makes it pretty clear that even a 'slappy' would admit that what i'm saying is true.

Please reply again, and i'll tell you more.

WSUalum2

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2008, 07:14:47 PM »
Hey, WSUAlum1, Wayne has screwed up in lots of ways -- I don't like it, but it's so.  I think you're overstating the extent.  (I checked WSU's faculty list from three years ago, and they've *gained* more permanent faculty since then than they've lost, so there really aren't "people leaving faster than they can be replaced.")  I hope the problem areas will get better, and maybe they will and maybe they won't.  Wu messed up fund-raising, including for the new building.  But I guess I'm pushing for Wayne in the WSU v. MSU thread in part because I think MSU's getting a free ride.  Back when it was the Detroit College of Law, it was in the 4th tier for ages, and it had exactly the sort of faculty you'd expect at a fourth tier school.  Now it's got a Big 10 name and a lot of money thrown at it, and some of the new faculty are good, but most of the faculty are the old fourth-tier folks, and that's a problem.  And I think WSU really is a lot better in that respect -- still.

I'm going to quit this thread and give you the last word, though; here I am writing posts to LSD, when I need to be doing the work that pays the bills . . .

plex

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2008, 10:01:29 PM »
I enjoy these discussions, there really aren't any real active Michigan lawyers forums (that I know of), so it is fun to be able to have a debate somewhere.

WSUAlum1

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2008, 12:31:47 AM »
Hey WSU2:

Thanks for the reply, and I agree w/ much of what you say, so i hope we can shake hands here.  Re the faculty: I agree there are a few more profs listed on the website than a few years ago.  That won't be true after everyone leaves in May.  But even if you were right: my beef (and not just mine) is that the law school jacked up tuition $5K per year, plus more for inflation, etc, a few years ago on the pretext that it would hire lots more faculty, which would raise fac/student ratios, and that this master plan would push us into T2.  But the school has not been able to fill all of these extra slots, b/c we hire folks w/ great credentials from the east coast who went to east coast law schools and have no connection to SE MI and leave as soon as they can.  The master plan did not work b/c we are now deep into T3 (behind MSU, as you seem to acknowledge by silence).  But--current students are still paying the higher tuition, and getting nothing for it.

The great thing about Wayne used to be that it was so cheap compared to the other MI law schools.  Literally 1/2 the tuition of MSU and less than 1/2 of UDM.  You could go to wayne, leave w/ low debt, and do the kind of work that made you want to go to law school in the 1st place: civil rights, crim defense, prosecutor's office, AG, whatever.  Small law.  Many wayne grads are solos soon after grad, and enjoy the freedom.  (Sorry Big Law lovers, but you'll hate your life soon enough)  It was a great opportunity school for people of modest means.  Now it costs almost as much as MSU/UDM, and if you tell those schools that you are considering WSU, they'll instantly give you $ to make up the difference (which ain't much), which means that basically there is no cost advantage at all. When a state school offers no cost savings over private schools, something is wrong.

I'm also worried about the long term.  Firms want students who are ready to practice law as soon as they graduate.  They aren't willing to write off hours while newbies serve an apprenticeship, carrying briefcases as in the old days.  The ABA (of course!) is pushing law schools in this direction, and most are following suit.  Look at UDM's website.  Their dean has brought partners from Wall Street firms to the school to simulate a law firm environment in year 3, and Wall Street firms are paying some UDM grads $160K to start b/c they know how to practice law.  Do you appreciate how ridiculous this is???  Wall Street firms are taking UDM grads over Ivy grads b/c they know what the hell they are doing, and can start billing on day 1. This would never happen at wayne--the profs would burn that dean at the stake if s/he suggested bringing practitioners vs. researchers into the school.

I'm not saying that wayne should remake itself to send grads to wall street.  But wayne should teach its grads to practice law from day 1, as other schools are doing. When you took civ pro, did you ever see pleadings?  When you took family law, did you learn what to ask a couple w/ no kids to draft divorce papers?  Did you see divorce papers?  If you took bankruptcy, could you file a simple one?  I expect you took corps--could you incorporate a business?  If the answers are no (and they are), and you are paying $22K a year for a 'legal education,' then what are you paying for??

Here's a hint: you are paying for your profs, who are often unavailable during their meager office hours, to write law review articles on subjects that interest them. 

I agree w/ you, WSU2, wayne's profs are studs.  If I had a Q re an obscure area of law, I'd call a WSU prof b4 MSU.  No question.  I suppose it's good for a segment of the practicing bar that WSU students are spending big $, and taking on big debt, to support WSU faculty who want to research the minutiae.

Great deal for them, (and us) but what about their students?

Sorry to repeat, but: reply again, and I'll tell you more.

Goodnight & goodluck










WSULawStudent1

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #38 on: April 27, 2008, 01:47:28 AM »
To the OP: I guess you know what choice i made.  Not sure if I made the right one, but here I am.  If you do come to Wayne, think about Ferndale vs Royal Oak.  It's cheaper, and if you live close to Woodward you can take the bus.  Ferndale has some decent bars, restaurants and coffee shops for studying.  But compared to E lansing--I couldn't say, b/c i didn't go to MSU UG.

I'd like to hear from Wayne people about what WSUAlum1 sd.  It seems to be on track, from what I can tell, and that's sad.  Should I transfer?  Will the new dean fix things? or am i suffering from exam fever :(

plex

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Re: Wayne State v. Michigan State
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2008, 01:52:38 PM »
Foley & Lardner has an office in Mich, which does some IP Lit. That is about it as far as I know for Vault firms in Michigan.