Wayne State v. Michigan State

[Detroitynglawyer]

Where should I live if I decide to go to Wayne ?   how bad is living "in da hood?"

Live in Royal Oak, not downtown.

[Detroitynglawyer]

If I go to wayne sure as hell wouldnt live downtown, I'd live in Royal Oak.  I went to MSU for undergrad and its nice up there but I'm concerned about jobs, cost and transfer opprotunties

[bummerz]

let me know if you go to wayne.  I'm sending in my seat deposit to wayne this week.

[premieraw]

let me know if you go to wayne.  I'm sending in my seat deposit to wayne this week.

I'm actually torn right now between WSU and UDM. For the longest time i was all about WSU, but their administration is absolutely horrid (hopefully this will change upon Wu's departure) and i've heard not so great things about their career office as well. UDM on the other hand, offered me nearly full tution (while WSU only offerred 40%) and has recently recieved some great press for the Dean's employment efforts. I guess i'm just not certain anymore that the average Wayne grad will have anymore opportunities then the UDM grad will. Not to mention if, by chance, i can wind up in the top 10-15% of my class, UDM clearly offers more national prospects. (with arguably the same in Detroit at that point)

Any thoughts?

[bummerz]

Well .. for me .. I only applied to WSU because of a fee waiver.  I'm in Houston.  I didn't think much of WSU until I read some more info.  I think they are undervalued.  They have been tier 3 for a long time and have good reputation in the area from what I hear.  I think eventually MSU will overtake them eventually, based on name recognition but it'll be a while .. depending on how the new dean handles the current undervalued ranking.  I got pretty good offer from Washburn but I think WSU suits me more.   I know that UDM is also highly respected but I don't think I can afford UDM if I had to pay full price.  They also say their median income is 60th in the nation which is higher than MSU which is pretty good I think.  I have not done research on UDM so I don't know if I would choose them.  All I know of UDM is that they are tier 4 and that they are respected.

[premieraw]

Well .. for me .. I only applied to WSU because of a fee waiver.  I'm in Houston.  I didn't think much of WSU until I read some more info.  I think they are undervalued.  They have been tier 3 for a long time and have good reputation in the area from what I hear.  I think eventually MSU will overtake them eventually, based on name recognition but it'll be a while .. depending on how the new dean handles the current undervalued ranking.  I got pretty good offer from Washburn but I think WSU suits me more.   I know that UDM is also highly respected but I don't think I can afford UDM if I had to pay full price.  They also say their median income is 60th in the nation which is higher than MSU which is pretty good I think.  I have not done research on UDM so I don't know if I would choose them.  All I know of UDM is that they are tier 4 and that they are respected.

While i would agree with your assessment that Wayne is an under-achiever, they were actually a Tier 2 school at one point in their existence. The problem, however, is that for the last 5 years (give or take a few) the program has been plagued with inefficiences resulting in, among other things, a very small incoming class last year. I'm still on the fence, but, i think you should at least take these things into consideration.

[bummerz]

I think WSU will come back.  My alma mater UH had a very similar experience.  They were top tier 2 for a long time .. then dropped to almost tier 3 because of bad dean and bad administration.  Now UH is back at top tier 2 again.  UH and Wayne are similar in regards to class size, student population, existing alumni base, and regional reputation.  In regards to last year's class size, that's probably coming from the erroneous reporting on dean Wu's clock from what I have learned so far.  They are already back on Tier 3 this year so that's been quite a quick correction.  I would have been worried if they had remained in tier 4.  I am optimistic that the situation will improve similarly with respect to UH once WSU start to focus on their rankings.  So I'm quite optimistic in Wayne's undervaluation at the moment and I believe WSU is a great deal for now and a great opportunity later even if the past administration sucked.

[premieraw]

I think WSU will come back.  My alma mater UH had a very similar experience.  They were top tier 2 for a long time .. then dropped to almost tier 3 because of bad dean and bad administration.  Now UH is back at top tier 2 again.  UH and Wayne are similar in regards to class size, student population, existing alumni base, and regional reputation.  In regards to last year's class size, that's probably coming from the erroneous reporting on dean Wu's clock from what I have learned so far.  They are already back on Tier 3 this year so that's been quite a quick correction.  I would have been worried if they had remained in tier 4.  I am optimistic that the situation will improve similarly with respect to UH once WSU start to focus on their rankings.  So I'm quite optimistic in Wayne's undervaluation at the moment and I believe WSU is a great deal for now and a great opportunity later even if the past administration sucked.

I agree on most of your points, however if i was you i would really be hammering (at the minimum) their career services department for statistics and the like. While it's true they have historically been the 2nd best school in the state, they cannot rest on that legacy forever. I work for a BigLaw firm here in Detroit and have spoken with the head of recruiting on many occasions regarding WSU and she has been completely turned off by Wayne's career services dept. (for what reason she really wouldn't say) That said, we have probably close to 50 attorneys here that graduated from Wayne so i doubt the recruiting will be ever really be halted, but it could certainly be cut back. Anyways best of luck, maybe we'll be classmates next year.

[bummerz]

Can you provide some more insights into UDM vs WSU and MSU in regards to job prospect in the metro detroit or michigan area?  What are you leaning towards?  Do you think WSU will improve? Best of luck to you also.  Hopefully we can be classmates.

[WSUAlum1]

Unfortunately, the problems at Wayne go far beyond Dean Wu.  (I hope his replacement is good, but I know he's a 2d choice--their 1st choice turned them down)  Six faculty members left this year or are leaving at the end (including two of the school's best teachers)--they will be lucky to replace 2 of those 6, because good young profs don't want to go there.  There are only 1 1/2 clinical profs for the whole school.  The school fell into the 4th tier last year.  It has returned to T3, but it is now well behind MSU, and is unlikely to catch up. Much as I hate to say it, Wayne is now the #3 school in MI.  The real problem here is that Wayne's program is far out of date.  Law firms want to hire lawyers who are ready to practice "out of the box."  They don't want to spend years training lawyers who come from schools that stress theory to the exclusion of practice.  MSU has gotten with that program (and UDM has done so with a vengeance!  Go to their website and read the story the Wall Street Journal did on them).  Wayne's legal writing program is 10 years old, and there are not enough clinical/pretrial ad courses for everyone, or even for most students.  Its profs have heavy publishing obligations.  They are very bright (and some of them are quick to let you know it), but their obscure law review articles don't help you practice law.

Over many years, Wayne was the unquestioned #2 school in MI.  Also--its tuition used to be 1/2 of the other schools.  It was a great bargain, and it has many proud and successful alums, which will help you in future job searches.  But it is now #3 in US News, and won't catch MSU.  The dynamics are against the school. 

Last point: if you tell MSU and UDM that you are serious about WSU, they'll usually give you $ to make up the tuition difference.  Then make your choice on the merits.
Truly last point, as many posters have noted: the customer service at UDM/MSU is much better.  Wayne's people in admissions, etc are fine, but they are grossly understaffed and have been for years.  I doubt it will change