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Author Topic: I'm going to assume that.....  (Read 13470 times)

Clayton

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #50 on: April 03, 2008, 01:34:37 AM »
My problem with AA is that it totally ignores white people who live in the same circumstances as the URM's and relegates them into not attending college.

These poor schools are not all black, nor all hispanic, there are white people there too living in the same conditions / same background whom for all intents and purposes get left behind.



I went to one of these schools. I am white, I went to a school that was 88% black, 8% hispanic, 3% white, 1% other. The school was ranked second to last in the north texas area in 2003, the school ranked last was closed down by the state.

I was fortunate and had grandparents with money who paid for my undergrad. My non URM friends were not so lucky, most of them (while intelligent) if they did anything at all, never progressed farther than trade school.

eastend

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #51 on: April 03, 2008, 08:46:32 AM »
My concern is that a system like that is hugely preferential to wealthy people.  I guess if you don't think that promoting economic mobility should be a goal of our education policy, though, a merit-only system make sense.

Its not to protect wealth, but to entitle a man to his own sweat.  Economic mobility should be promoted by education, not by a cherry picking external system built into academic bureaucracy.     It doesnt take a wealthy man to eschew a social life for 5 months to study for the LSAT, and it doesnt take a wealthy man to go to a state school, attend class, join a club or two, and get above a 3.0.


It doesn't.

It does take a lifelong supportive environment to instill those sorts of values and discipline in individuals - family, friends, school systems, etc.

The argument is that there is a strong correlation between wealth and these sorts of support systems needed to make a successful student and person. It's isn't an absolute correlation, and no one is pretending it is, but is there nonetheless.

Strong arguments can be made that race has a discriminatory factor that influences, and/or can go beyond these types of support systems. Hence the (almost universally accepted) need for "diversity" in the work place and educational system (among other reasons).

There will always be self made people, much like there will always be socially made and unmade people. Surely we not ignore one for the sake of the other?


'Socially made and unmade'? 


I'm going to try and make an argument, it's my first time, so be gentle.

Race based AA violates basic American democratic values of equality and merit. 
It violates the fundamental moral principle against treating someone differently because of the color of their skin.
Race based AA does not hold minorities to the same standards, so they are less likely to hold themselves to these standards.
The link between inferiority and race is reinforced by preferences.
Race based AA can place minorities in educational environments that are inappropriate for their level of skills and preparation. 
It creates a “spoils system,” in which groups compete for benefits rather than individuals being evaluated on their merits.
It creates increasing cynicism, as academic decisions are believed to be politically motivated.
It undermines the initiative of both those who benefit and those who don’t.
It perpetuates ways of categorizing people.
It suggests that if you're black you have a right to compensation for the substantial systematic violation of your ancestors rights.  This leads to a “Restorative Justice Handicapping System” that would give each individual an AA score, either positive or negative. 
It discounts disadvantage.  You can be advantaged and a minority, and be disadvantaged and white.
It's perfectly reasonable for minorities to support preferences since they will get advantages from them, even if they know that preferences are wrong.














$Bill

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #52 on: April 03, 2008, 08:50:36 AM »
Also, what makes me tilt my head from the outside, is how Afro-Amer Female is judged to be a better URM then Native American.

Slavery>Genocide for admissions?











eastend

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #53 on: April 03, 2008, 09:05:11 AM »
Also, what makes me tilt my head from the outside, is how Afro-Amer Female is judged to be a better URM then Native American.

Slavery>Genocide for admissions?

Therein lies the problem.












Ghost

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #54 on: April 03, 2008, 03:23:12 PM »
How come everyone has a literal mountain of adversity they've had to overcome?

How come no one, save tm., can admit they've had a really good upbringing?

 ???

$Bill

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #55 on: April 03, 2008, 03:40:42 PM »
Because the human condition is suffering and conflict?  We all live lives of quiet desperation?  That kind of thing?

secondsblue

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2008, 12:42:28 AM »
My problem with AA is that it totally ignores white people who live in the same circumstances as the URM's and relegates them into not attending college.

These poor schools are not all black, nor all hispanic, there are white people there too living in the same conditions / same background whom for all intents and purposes get left behind.



I went to one of these schools. I am white, I went to a school that was 88% black, 8% hispanic, 3% white, 1% other. The school was ranked second to last in the north texas area in 2003, the school ranked last was closed down by the state.

I was fortunate and had grandparents with money who paid for my undergrad. My non URM friends were not so lucky, most of them (while intelligent) if they did anything at all, never progressed farther than trade school.



Nobody gives a load of *&^%. It's all about providing a tangible incentive to garner students from races that have TRADITIONALLY BEEN DENIED EDUCATION. I.e, Native Americans (the white man taking their land and slaughtering them), blacks ("hey, it's some white folks in a big ship! let's see what they want!") and, to a lesser extent, Hispanics.

Clayton

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #57 on: April 23, 2008, 01:57:25 AM »
Don't you see the inconsistencies with such an approach?


Shouldn't such a program help everyone and not categorize them by race?

 If anything it is those with a financial hardship that have been categorically denied opportunity for higher education throughout history; lack of money is something that affects people of every race.

philosopher

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #58 on: May 10, 2008, 05:40:11 PM »
I think the OP is right in the sense that people are going to assume their black classmates are there because of AA (even if unwarranted). I'd hate to be a black person that got a 175 on the LSAT. I'd have a female dog of a time convincing people I was there out of merit :D


I wouldn't waste a second trying to convince some sorry hater that I deserve to be @ X Law School.  The only people I'll worry about are my professors; for them, my work will speak for itself.  Any student pathetic enough to waste mental energy on such inconsequential nonsense, such as my supposed "inferiority," will just have to get used to seeing me around.  I've already made my decision: I will not share my #s (even if I score a 175 on the JUNE LSAT LOL) with anyone @ my future law school. They'll just have to wonder...or squirm ;).

Totally love this.  Quit worrying about your classmates and worry about YOURSELF!
"People pay for what they do, and still more for what they have allowed themselves to become; and they pay for it very simply: by the lives they lead."
--James Baldwin

philosopher

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Re: I'm going to assume that.....
« Reply #59 on: May 10, 2008, 05:43:32 PM »
Don't you see the inconsistencies with such an approach?


Shouldn't such a program help everyone and not categorize them by race?

 If anything it is those with a financial hardship that have been categorically denied opportunity for higher education throughout history; lack of money is something that affects people of every race.

Lack of money does affect every race but in some cases it can be easier for a white person to go out and get a job to pay for school.
"People pay for what they do, and still more for what they have allowed themselves to become; and they pay for it very simply: by the lives they lead."
--James Baldwin