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Author Topic: Arizona v. Missouri  (Read 1717 times)

upgrade

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2008, 02:15:33 PM »
I went through the websites of the NALP firms in Missouri and Arizona and counted the number of graduates from the each school.  The numbers for Arizona show much more out of state competition than in Missouri.

Of the 550 associates in Arizona (I know this is a larger than the number reported by NALP that I listed earlier) 128 came from ASU and 92 from UofA, a total of 220 or about 40%.  The remaining 183 came from out of state, the leading schools being: Iowa 25, BYU 18, ND 13, KU 13, Vanderbilt 10.

The ratio of ASU to UofA graduates and ASU to UofA associates is roughly the same.

Of the 820 associates in Missouri 152 SLU, 131 WUSTL, 92 KU, 91 MU, 71 UMKC, for a total of 537 or about 65%.  The leaders for out of state were Illinoi 23, Iowa 20, Washburn 16, Notre Dame 12.

Again, the ratio of graduates to associates from each school is roughly the same, except UMKC which is a little bit higher.

So the conclusion from all of this is that if you unsure whether you want Arizona or Missouri, go to Iowa!

jammer

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2008, 02:24:36 PM »
Does anyone have any insight into either of these legal markets?  I am starting to whittle down my options and am strongly considering AZ or MO schools.  Here are two things that I have been considering, but I know very little about Arizona as I haven't lived there in many years.

Schools: Missouri's two large markets have several feeder schools, MU, KU, SLU, WUSTL, UMKC, a significant portion of which are competing for the same jobs.  Arizona on the other hand has only UofA and ASU.  I'm sure that graduates from neighboring states have a presence in Arizona, but are there any schools that other than those in Arizona, that have a significant presence in Arizona?  Is there significant competition from California graduates for jobs in Arizona or are ASU and UofA considered top dogs in Arizona?  MU seems to come in 3rd place behind KU and UMKC in Kansas City NALP firm associate positions and also 3rd place behind SLU and WUSTL in St. Louis.  Is a graduate from UofA or ASU going to have a better chance than a graduate of MU at a large firm job given the same class rank at either?

Distribution: Phoenix appears to dominate to the legal scene in Arizona, while Kansas City and St. Louis seem to be fairly equal.  I have lived in all three cities and would be happy in any of them, but I'm not sure if the concentration of one larger legal market as opposed to the separated markets has any relevance.


Where do you currently live? If you're instate, Mizzou's tuition is just under 15,000 per year, and it's a strongly ranked Tier 2 school (somewhere in the 60s, if that really matters.) I'm going to MU in the fall, and it sounds like - at least in St. Louis - more importance is placed on how well you do in school rather than where you went to school. Mizzou has a good network that you can take advantage of, especially in Missouri politics.

But then again, I'm biased towards MU. Sending my deposit as soon as I get paid!

hurley325

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2008, 02:51:48 PM »
This is somewhat off topic, but did you find out anything new or interesting at Mizzou's St. Louis reception?  I'm getting pretty excited to go up to Columbia on Wednesday.

Congrats on your decision Jammer!  I really wish I had some idea about where I was going, but at least I've got it narrowed down to 3 now.

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2008, 02:59:56 PM »
I live in Columbia currently.  I agree that class rank is probably more important than where you went to school, if you attend KU, MU, or SLU.  WUSTL graduates get more leeway and UMKC graduates probably get a little less.

Don't get me wrong, I think MU is a really good school and is probably the most comfortable school I have visited.  My only hold up is what happens if I don't finish in the top 10-15%.  The recent graduates who I have talked to who were around median had to bust their butt for months to obtain mediocre jobs like working with a solo practitioner and only being paid when they bring their own business.

Are you attending the reception on Wednesday?

upgrade

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2008, 03:05:25 PM »
This is somewhat off topic, but did you find out anything new or interesting at Mizzou's St. Louis reception?  I'm getting pretty excited to go up to Columbia on Wednesday.

Congrats on your decision Jammer!  I really wish I had some idea about where I was going, but at least I've got it narrowed down to 3 now.

I went to meet with alumni to obtain their perspective on MU v. SLU v. WUSTL in St. Louis.  I guess I knew what to expect when talking to MU alums...  Some of the discussions regarding what to do after law school, how large firms operate, how different specialties can affect one's role at a large firm, etc. were enlightening.

Which three schools are on your radar?

hurley325

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2008, 03:16:20 PM »
This is somewhat off topic, but did you find out anything new or interesting at Mizzou's St. Louis reception?  I'm getting pretty excited to go up to Columbia on Wednesday.

Congrats on your decision Jammer!  I really wish I had some idea about where I was going, but at least I've got it narrowed down to 3 now.

I went to meet with alumni to obtain their perspective on MU v. SLU v. WUSTL in St. Louis.  I guess I knew what to expect when talking to MU alums...  Some of the discussions regarding what to do after law school, how large firms operate, how different specialties can affect one's role at a large firm, etc. were enlightening.

Which three schools are on your radar?

Mizzou, Tulane, and the University of San Diego.  If I am able to negotiate a scholarship out of Tulane I will almost certainly end up there, and my emails with the Dean at Tulane have given me hope, so we'll see.

jammer

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2008, 04:35:16 PM »
I live in Columbia currently.  I agree that class rank is probably more important than where you went to school, if you attend KU, MU, or SLU.  WUSTL graduates get more leeway and UMKC graduates probably get a little less.

Don't get me wrong, I think MU is a really good school and is probably the most comfortable school I have visited.  My only hold up is what happens if I don't finish in the top 10-15%.  The recent graduates who I have talked to who were around median had to bust their butt for months to obtain mediocre jobs like working with a solo practitioner and only being paid when they bring their own business.

Are you attending the reception on Wednesday?


Can't go because I work during the week, but I do hope to visit up there soon. I've already been to MU numerous times, but I'd like to meet some more people at the school and just look around some more. Hopefully, I can get a better sense of the living situation on the Columbia scene, and maybe get a few leads on good places to live.

And good luck to Hurley. I hope Tulane works out for you!

AZ_T

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2008, 05:53:58 PM »
As an Arizonian with a couple of friends who practice (I'll be 1L in the Fall), I can give you a small amount of anecdotal info regarding the state's legal climate.  We have a large, still growing and healthy legal community with an extremely limited amount of law schools feeding new lawyers to the community (as mentioned earlier in the thread). 

I'm sure the real estate bust has hurt the whole nation, but our state was crushed by that downward swing and the real estate law gold falling from the sky stopped falling, but many other opportunities continue to exist. 

The state bar is considered to be an "easier one", but ASU, which can boast many great attributes, does have an issue graduating people who can pass it at an above average rate.  I have no clue why that is.  They get high marks in many other areas.

I've had friends that have gone to U of A and love Tucson, and it is quaint, but the real noise is up in Phoenix, IMHO.  ASU is in Tempe, right next to Phoenix and is quite the party town.  More importantly, both schools have great academic reputations in state.  The new Phoenix School of Law in Phoenix is aggressively pursuing a place of good standing in our community.  Currently, they only have provisional ABA status until 2010.  Their targeted student is the "returning student" or part time student (they have the only in-state part-time law program).  While clearly tier 4, I have been impressed with their early strategy and tenacity.  Still, ASU and U of A are obviously still the way to go for most students.

The winters here are beautiful and it isn't strange to see people wearing shorts in January.  June, July and August are red hot, but luckily most people reading this won't be doing construction work outside then.  I have to think that we have more pools per house than any other state, but I can't back that opinion up!   Vegas is a four and a half hour drive away, Los Angeles is a little over five hours and Rocky Point, Mexico is about four and a half hours away by car. 

Best of luck to anyone looking at any of the AZ schools.

TiffanyTallulah

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #18 on: March 16, 2008, 04:08:47 AM »
I will give you some insight to ASU and UA. I grew up in Mesa (Phoenix) and attended UA for undergrad. Both are great law schools, though I do prefer UA.

UA and ASU are both regional law schools (most law schools that aren't top law schools are).

Pros:
1. LOW TUITION
2. low faculty to student ratio (ASU has the third lowest in the country)
3. total access to Arizona
Phoenix is the fifth largest city in the United States and one of the fastest growing cities in the US as well. ASU is the only law school in the city. You have total access to that city. If you go to UA, you will basically have total access to Phoenix. Tucson isn't very far from Phoenix.
You wanted to know if there was much competition from ASU/UA graduates with Cali law graduates for Arizona jobs. I would say, definitely not. If you do your job in law school and get those summer internships, you are pretty much set. And, I know from discussing with ASU/UA law students (I personally know many) and discussion with the actual law schools that they do whatever they can to help you. The career services office is there for you completely. A lot of the attorneys/judges in Arizona graduated from UA/ASU and will prefer graduates from Arizona.
4. access to the Southwest and West Coast regions (though in Cali you will have to do some extra work to compete with those Cali law school graduates)
5. great weather, um Missouri has major humidity issues I am sure.
6. cost of living is way low

epicac

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Re: Arizona v. Missouri
« Reply #19 on: March 16, 2008, 04:46:00 AM »

Hopefully, I can get a better sense of the living situation on the Columbia scene, and maybe get a few leads on good places to live.


I'd recommend the south side of town, maybe somewhere off Southampton, if you're looking for a quieter place.  There are some nice places to be had in the heart of downtown (near 9th and Broadway), but it tends to get rowdy down there, and distracting.

There are some new places around Forum and Nifong that might suit your needs, too.  Just don't go north of 70 looking for a place.  Not the pretty part of town, for sure.
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