Law School Discussion

Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #40 on: February 29, 2008, 11:43:14 PM »
You are also limiting yourself to one years worth of numbers...Duke has been OK recently....surely not Mich or UVA but it is a very good school. You must also consider where the schools will be when you graduate? In 10 years? Michigan surely will not leave the top 10 but will Duke still remain in the T14? Who Knows...Michigan has been as high as #3 (1987) in the US News rankings...has Duke? I think not...Duke may have doen well as a corporate law factory playing the US News Rankings game last year but will it have the long-time reputation of Michigan.....hmmmmm? If you can go to TX, Mich or UVA save some money and throw Duke out of the mix.

Michigan has been falling in the rankings while Duke has been rising - so we should favor Michigan for its historic rankings? That's sound logic. I don't think Duke has ever been outside of the top 14, and Michigan was only third in the first year the rankings were published. Duke also has a new, highly respected dean this year, and the school itself is undergoing major renovations. If anything it will go up.

To the OP, I would disregard a lot of what has been said knocking Duke in this thread. Michigan obviously has a great reputation, but I think the differences between the schools are minor. And Duke, being in the south, might place better than Michigan in TX. No matter how many big law partners nike6075 thinks he's spoken with, numbers don't lie. To be honest, I didn't know that UVA was good at anything until I started applying to law schools last year and was shocked to find it in the T14 (I'm from the northeast). Of course, I now know that it's a great school - my point is that its name recognition isn't huge in some parts of the country.

Good thing it's the partners (and not you) doing the hiring.  The views of people who don't know anything about law schools is completely and totally irrelevant.

You sure are an angry little guy. You know so much about law school how? Are you even in law school?

I'm just trying to help the kid out with numbers. You're screeching that I'm wrong based on conversations with "partners" at the "biglaw" firm you work for. Neato.

Here are some more numbers. Leiter's Scholarly Impact 2007, rankings by faculty citations: Duke 8; Michigan 9; UVA 17. (http://www.leiterrankings.com/faculty/2007faculty_impact.shtml)

Why don't you post:

1. The USNWR rankings
2. The other Leiter rankings, like SCOTUS clerks, student quality, national placement
3. The numerous shortcomings to the Leiter faculty impact rankings, which Leiter himself fully acknowledges -- eg, having a lot of old professors that don't teach anymore will raise your ranking but does not affect educational quality.

Why don't you also look at UVA's vs. Duke's yield -- which can be calculated via their admissions stats on their websites. Are you saying all those people are wrong by choosing UVA over Duke?


This argument is dumb. Nobody is saying that UVA is a bad school. I was just giving advise to the OP. But I'll humor you.

1. UVA and Duke are tied at 10. Michigan is immediately above them, at 8.
2. SCOTUS clerks (#/avg class size): Michigan - 21/350; UVA - 19/350; Duke - 7/200. They all send a fraction of 1% of their students to the Supreme Court.
3. I already posted more recent data on law firms. As for student placement, feel free to post it, but if all things are equal, I don't think +1 or 2 on the school's avg. LSAT score will make much difference in your life.
4. UVA is a public school. Lots of Virginians apply, lots of Virginians get in, lots of Virginians go.

So how is it at duke?

Duke is fantastic, thanks for asking.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #41 on: March 01, 2008, 07:31:27 PM »
Actually, if I end up going to one of the other three it will probably be Duke as long as I like it when I visit. All of my friends and family look at me cross-eyed when I suggest Michigan or Virginia over Texas and are shocked when I tell them they are pretigious law schools, but everyone seems to know that Duke is a more prestigious school than UT...I know that is a pretty dumb reason to lean toward one school over others, but when all the other tangibles seem to me to be so close then little things (like all the opinions of those who are in my relational circles) begin to matter more. We'll see when I visit. If I really like Michigan or Virginia then my mindset could change in an instant, but right now I'll give the edge to Duke. Again, I'd have to really like Duke to choose it over Texas though.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #42 on: March 01, 2008, 07:36:02 PM »
If you do not have a copy of the Texas Lawyer Almanac for 2007, any participation in this thread is pure bull. Call Texas Lawyer and get a copy. It lists all BIGTEX associate hiring by LS, as well as all new partners by LS.
HTH.

This is one of the best ideas on this thread. I'm definitely going to do this...I'm actually a looong way from home right now, though, and I won't be back in the US for a few weeks. Can you give us a hint about what the Almanac indicates.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2008, 08:24:18 PM »
Actually, if I end up going to one of the other three it will probably be Duke as long as I like it when I visit. All of my friends and family look at me cross-eyed when I suggest Michigan or Virginia over Texas and are shocked when I tell them they are pretigious law schools, but everyone seems to know that Duke is a more prestigious school than UT...I know that is a pretty dumb reason to lean toward one school over others, but when all the other tangibles seem to me to be so close then little things (like all the opinions of those who are in my relational circles) begin to matter more. We'll see when I visit. If I really like Michigan or Virginia then my mindset could change in an instant, but right now I'll give the edge to Duke. Again, I'd have to really like Duke to choose it over Texas though.

oooooh nooooooooo, don't get fooled by lay prestige. Going by lay prestige, Princeton Law is one of the top three law schools in the country. Georgetown is right behind it.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2008, 11:35:42 PM »
Lol.  That is very true.

Czar

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2008, 05:12:23 PM »
Don't be fooled by the trolls. Duke has numerous advantages over Michigan, they just aren't as quantifiable. The climate and culture at the two places couldn't be more different, so you are definitely right when you say the visit should be your deciding factor.

In your case, I think your best fit is UT or UVa off the bat unless Duke offers you money.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2008, 07:21:51 PM »
Not saying he shouldn't go to Duke, just saying that he shouldn't go to Duke because the name is more impressive to his family/friends. I have no opinion on the substantive issue, just on the reasons behind the issue.

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Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #47 on: March 03, 2008, 07:12:14 AM »
If you do not have a copy of the Texas Lawyer Almanac for 2007, any participation in this thread is pure bull. Call Texas Lawyer and get a copy. It lists all BIGTEX associate hiring by LS, as well as all new partners by LS.
HTH.

This is one of the best ideas on this thread. I'm definitely going to do this...I'm actually a looong way from home right now, though, and I won't be back in the US for a few weeks. Can you give us a hint about what the Almanac indicates.

I don't have it on my desk today, so I'm doing this from memory, but it collates information from the 25 largest law firms in TX. It ranges from Akin Gump and Fulbright downward. It also includes the Texas offices of out state firms such as Jones Day and Weil Gotshal. I can post an update on this later.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #48 on: March 03, 2008, 07:30:01 PM »
Actually, if I end up going to one of the other three it will probably be Duke as long as I like it when I visit. All of my friends and family look at me cross-eyed when I suggest Michigan or Virginia over Texas and are shocked when I tell them they are pretigious law schools, but everyone seems to know that Duke is a more prestigious school than UT...I know that is a pretty dumb reason to lean toward one school over others, but when all the other tangibles seem to me to be so close then little things (like all the opinions of those who are in my relational circles) begin to matter more. We'll see when I visit. If I really like Michigan or Virginia then my mindset could change in an instant, but right now I'll give the edge to Duke. Again, I'd have to really like Duke to choose it over Texas though.

oooooh nooooooooo, don't get fooled by lay prestige. Going by lay prestige, Princeton Law is one of the top three law schools in the country. Georgetown is right behind it.

I think you've missed the fact that I've already considered most of the other real world factors and have concluded that all three are pretty much the same in my mind. Lay prestige to me is just like icing on the cake...now if all three cakes or otherwise the same, why not take the one with the icing? Your example of Princeton Law doesn't make sense within this context. I understand your overarching principle though, and I agree with you.

Re: Michigan/Duke/Virginia/Texas$$
« Reply #49 on: March 03, 2008, 07:32:36 PM »
If you do not have a copy of the Texas Lawyer Almanac for 2007, any participation in this thread is pure bull. Call Texas Lawyer and get a copy. It lists all BIGTEX associate hiring by LS, as well as all new partners by LS.
HTH.

This is one of the best ideas on this thread. I'm definitely going to do this...I'm actually a looong way from home right now, though, and I won't be back in the US for a few weeks. Can you give us a hint about what the Almanac indicates.

I don't have it on my desk today, so I'm doing this from memory, but it collates information from the 25 largest law firms in TX. It ranges from Akin Gump and Fulbright downward. It also includes the Texas offices of out state firms such as Jones Day and Weil Gotshal. I can post an update on this later.

Ya, if you could I would really appreciate it. My guess is that most of them are from UT (am I right?).