Re: Illinois Status Checker - AA Debate

[Ender Wiggin]

Highly influenced and often decided, per policy. Highly as in a 5-7 pt. LSAT number bump compared to an equally qualified white applicant at most schools, solely based on race. Nearly all admissions decisions are determined by LSAT and GPA, with some minor variance. When an admissions office decides to lower the bottom number for acceptances by 5-7 points for a URM, the applicant's race has in fact 'decided' the admission, not merely influenced it. Want to get in to Loyola Chicago with a 149 LSAT, or Denver with a 149 LSAT? You can if you are a URM, but have almost no chance if you are a non-URM. Decision = decided, not influenced by race.   

If some minorities are accepted and others are not, there has to be something more to it than just race.  The decision is influenced, not decided, by race.

[Outlaw22]

Highly influenced and often decided, per policy. Highly as in a 5-7 pt. LSAT number bump compared to an equally qualified white applicant at most schools, solely based on race. Nearly all admissions decisions are determined by LSAT and GPA, with some minor variance. When an admissions office decides to lower the bottom number for acceptances by 5-7 points for a URM, the applicant's race has in fact 'decided' the admission, not merely influenced it. Want to get in to Loyola Chicago with a 149 LSAT, or Denver with a 149 LSAT? You can if you are a URM, but have almost no chance if you are a non-URM. Decision = decided, not influenced by race.  

A white student and say a black student with the same LSAT score are not "equally qualified." It's not all about the LSAT. Law schools value diversity and new and different perspectives that can be brought to the classroom and enhance EVERYONE's experience. In this situation it is more likely that a black student brings a perspective and experiences (while not entirely shaped by his/her race, but I would say largely so - just the same as all of us are shaped by our race to an extent) that adds greater diversity to a classroom than a white student, especially seeing as it is likely to be 60% white. And of course other factors come into this - work experience, peace corps/teach for america, military experience, organizational involvement etc...  So when they put all of those factors together IN ADDITION TO race, they generally select what they believe to be a more qualified student and one that will bring more to the classroom environment. And like Ender Wiggen pointed out, many URMs are turned down in the 149 LSAT example you give. So it's not simply decided by race. And there ARE non-URMs well below medians who are accepted as well. Hi, I'm one of them. It's not all about race.

Diversity enhances everyone's experience and understanding. And from what you've written so far, your perspective doesn't seem very diverse for a white person.

[jdr145]

Highly influenced and often decided, per policy. Highly as in a 5-7 pt. LSAT number bump compared to an equally qualified white applicant at most schools, solely based on race. Nearly all admissions decisions are determined by LSAT and GPA, with some minor variance. When an admissions office decides to lower the bottom number for acceptances by 5-7 points for a URM, the applicant's race has in fact 'decided' the admission, not merely influenced it. Want to get in to Loyola Chicago with a 149 LSAT, or Denver with a 149 LSAT? You can if you are a URM, but have almost no chance if you are a non-URM. Decision = decided, not influenced by race.   

A white student and say a black student with the same LSAT score are not "equally qualified." It's not all about the LSAT. Law schools value diversity and new and different perspectives that can be brought to the classroom and enhance EVERYONE's experience. In this situation it is more likely that a black student brings a perspective and experiences (while not entirely shaped by his/her race, but I would say largely so - just the same as all of us are shaped by our race to an extent) that adds greater diversity to a classroom than a white student, especially seeing as it is likely to be 60% white. And of course other factors come into this - work experience, peace corps/teach for america, military experience, organizational involvement etc...  So when they put all of those factors together IN ADDITION TO race, they generally select what they believe to be a more qualified student and one that will bring more to the classroom environment. And like Ender Wiggen pointed out, many URMs are turned down in the 149 LSAT example you give. So it's not simply decided by race. And there ARE non-URMs well below medians who are accepted as well. Hi, I'm one of them. It's not all about race.

Diversity enhances everyone's experience and understanding. And from what you've written so far, your perspective doesn't seem very diverse for a white person.

very nicely said

[NYU2011]

I dont understand why being black means that you bring a diverse outlook to the classroom.  I think that is a racist thing to say.  I think a much better way to ensure diversity in opinions and discussion in the classroom would be to admit students from different income levels, ensure geographic diversity, look for family diversity (single parent homes, siblings, etc...) and so on.  Things that actually do bring a diverse outlook. 

Giving a bump to blacks and other minorities is not about attaining true diversity in the classroom.  Its about attaining the appearance of diversity.

This is just my opinion anyway.  I'm probably biased from being a white male that has lived in a rural town all of his life and that has had to support his own way through college.  I do not see why someone that is black should get a bump that I do not get.  Its not like they have had to work any harder than me.  And I'm not asking for a bump for myself so please do not say that I am bad because of my sense of entitlement.  I believe I am only entitled to what I deserve.

Thus far I am reasonably happy with my UofI, Washington&Lee, and William and Mary acceptances.  I would have liked to receive more money from UofI but we'll see what happens.  If I get rejected from the rest of the schools oh well, I'll still be happy where I end up.

[Outlaw22]

I dont understand why being black means that you bring a diverse outlook to the classroom.  I think that is a racist thing to say.  I think a much better way to ensure diversity in opinions and discussion in the classroom would be to admit students from different income levels, ensure geographic diversity, look for family diversity (single parent homes, siblings, etc...) and so on.  Things that actually do bring a diverse outlook. 

Giving a bump to blacks and other minorities is not about attaining true diversity in the classroom.  Its about attaining the appearance of diversity.

First, when a classroom is over 60% white (and your race is more than just an appearance - it greatly impacts your perspective and your experiences) then yes, being person of color brings diversity to that classroom. I'm white and in undergrad my History major's focus was African American History and my minor was Black Women's studies. One of my AA Studies Professors wrote my entire recommendation about the diversity/perspective I brought to her classroom as one of the only white students in a primarily black classroom. That diversity wasn't a matter of "appearance." No one is being racist by acknowledging the fact that your race, especially when different from the majority of the races in a classroom setting, can bring diversity to that classroom.

What's more, law schools do consider a variety of factors - in fact all of the ones you mentioned - when trying to ensure diversity. Many ask right on the application about socio-economic status (Berkeley comes to mind). Most others ask for Diversity Statements that include but are not limited to - race, geographic diversity, non-traditional students, religion, socio-economic status, sexuality/gender identity etc... These factors all come into play.

[dpwc]

I dont understand why being black means that you bring a diverse outlook to the classroom.  I think that is a racist thing to say. 

um, because you've gone through life being treated by people in a different way than you would have been if you were white?

that's the theory anyway.

While I agree that in a lot of cases this theory holds true, I don't think it is necessarily true. I think a diversity statement is a better way to evaluate an applicant than by simply labeling someone as URM. A white applicant who grew up in a predominantly black community could have been treated differently than if he/she was black. Conversely, I went to a  high school that had 4 black kids graduate in my class of 400. Outside of the occasional joke, there was no difference in the way they were treated. If that alone warrants URM status, then there should be a box to check if you're overweight or have acne.