Law School Discussion

Poll

yay or nay?  yes, this is heteronormative, i know i know.

a. yay
46 (74.2%)
b. nay
16 (25.8%)

Total Members Voted: 61

Girl taking guy's last name after marriage

mbw

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #120 on: April 10, 2008, 11:04:39 AM »


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

MahlerGrooves

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #121 on: April 10, 2008, 11:05:22 AM »
I think there are certainly some biochemical predispositions among genders.  For example, a male body's production of testosterone was necessary in the male role of hunter.  This was not the case in the woman as it is OFTEN counterproductive to have the gender responsible for giving birth out hunting violently (I say often because with lions, the females do most of the hunting).

But that doesn't mean we need to say that women are better parents and men should deal with that and women should quit their jobs and take care of the kids.  Men are biologically designed to procreate very often while women are designed to procreate once every 9 months.  Does that mean that men should go out and have affairs because their chemistry makes them want to?  No.

The same thing can be said for parenting.  While biology plays a part somewhat (ie, breastfeeding), it cannot be an excuse for men to hide behind in order to avoid taking on equal parenting roles.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #122 on: April 10, 2008, 11:06:39 AM »
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness. 

Oh, you got me, I'm selfish because I don't want children, which makes my thoughts less valid.

My personal decisions about children have very little to do with my abilities to discuss this issue, and your insistence on making them an issue is, quite frankly, insulting.

As is your judgment of me as selfish because I'm honest with myself about what is best for me and any potential offspring that I might have.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #123 on: April 10, 2008, 11:08:13 AM »


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

You're too sensitive! I'm selfish! Where's dash to create the triumvirate by being a shrill feminazi?

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #124 on: April 10, 2008, 11:08:53 AM »

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.

. . .

I haven't done that.

Thanks for playing, though.

FTR, based on the study I've done of gender through both scientific and sociological lenses, yes, there are some differences. I won't deny that, and I think if you actually read my posts without dismissing me as a hysterical feminist you'd get that. But those differences are intensely magnified by socialization and societal expectation, and do not preclude men from being equally as effective parents as women.

That's exactly what i just said.  So thank you for reiterating my point.

No, it's not exactly what you just said. You're therefore not welcome.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #125 on: April 10, 2008, 11:10:25 AM »
Right. So you don't respect my opinion. Why don't you just say so?

Word game... whatever.


Not a word game. One is condescending, the other is honest.

Also please see my latest edit.

Oh whatever, I'll reproduce it here:

ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

Everything people do "grows out of selfishness."  There's nothing wrong with that.

mbw

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Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #126 on: April 10, 2008, 11:11:19 AM »
I think there are certainly some biochemical predispositions among genders.  For example, a male body's production of testosterone was necessary in the male role of hunter.  This was not the case in the woman as it is OFTEN counterproductive to have the gender responsible for giving birth out hunting violently (I say often because with lions, the females do most of the hunting).

Not to put too fine a point on this, but so much of this line of argument is moot, as 75-85% of diets of most peoples throughout the world throughout history was based on "gathered" or agricultural foods, not traditional large game hunting. 

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #127 on: April 10, 2008, 11:11:32 AM »


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

All human acts are selfish, but, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that.

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #128 on: April 10, 2008, 11:12:41 AM »

Some men, yes. Some men, no. Also, some women yes, some women, no. I don't see a difference in parenting skills between men and women. Generally, people are people and the degree of parenting skills they have is generally a result of the type of person they are.

You, my friend, are Naive.  I appreciate what you are saying, but I'm afraid most children can see a SIGNIFICANT difference in the way they are treated by their mothers and fathers.

The most important point is that having two loving and involved parents is the best situation for a child.


Seeing a difference doesn't mean there are inevitable differences.

It means that men aren't taught to be caregivers, or expected to be caregivers, in the same way women are. And your thinking perpetuates that cycle.

Why can't there be genetic differences?

It's not an end-all, be-all just to say that women are genetically predisposed to parenting on a fundamental level that men aren't.  We're not monkeys, but it's been proven time and time again that evolutionary aspects built into our DNA are subconscious drivers in the decisions we make on a daily basis - from which food to eat, how much money to save, and who we pick as our mate.  Stop making this a 'either men are just as good at parenting or women should stay in the kitchen' situation - it's not.

. . .

I haven't done that.

Thanks for playing, though.

FTR, based on the study I've done of gender through both scientific and sociological lenses, yes, there are some differences. I won't deny that, and I think if you actually read my posts without dismissing me as a hysterical feminist you'd get that. But those differences are intensely magnified by socialization and societal expectation, and do not preclude men from being equally as effective parents as women.

That's exactly what i just said.  So thank you for reiterating my point.

No, it's not exactly what you just said. You're therefore not welcome.

I said that genetic differences exist, but this fact: a) shouldn't be an end-all, be-all for deciding the roles of parents in specific family situations b) doesn't mean that women are necessarily better parents and c) doesn't mean that men should shirk their responsibilities to provide and care for their children to the very best of their abilities.  What are you still arguing with?

Re: Girl taking guy's last name after marriage
« Reply #129 on: April 10, 2008, 11:13:09 AM »


ETA again: WTF, yo? I cant know things/have thoughts about parenting because I don't want kids? PLEASE. I was parented. I've watched friends be parented, and parent. I have young cousins who are more like nieces and nephews. There are children whose lives I am invested in. I'm generally invested in children everywhere growing up in a supportive and healthy environment. For christ's sake. Just because I don't want to squeeze a baby out of my vagina I'm not capable of thinking critically about these things??

You can think critically about these things.  I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Either way, you seem to not want kids because you don't want to deal with them.
Your point of view may be valid, but it's still seems like it grows out of selfishness

WTF?  Are you for real?  Not wanting kids is selfish? :::bangs head on desk::::

All human acts are selfish, but, like I said, there's nothing wrong with that.

Perhaps, though given the connotation the objection is valid.