Law School Discussion

LSAT Preparation => Studying for the LSAT => Topic started by: Andrew on February 08, 2007, 04:20:54 PM

Title: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: Andrew on February 08, 2007, 04:20:54 PM
Hi all,

Starting with the February 2007 LSAT, I'm making a new rule: do not post information about unreleased LSATs.  This means no attempting to reconstruct the test, no discussing specific questions, etc.

I've asked the LSAC to comment on why this is a problem, and they will be posting in this thread.  I will move their post to be right after this one.  Essentially, people have been concerned about dishonest behavior in connection with unreleased test questions.  You may think you're just discussing how you did on the test, but if you give too many details, you may be enabling someone else to cheat.  Remember that the LSAT is given in different time zones and on different days.  To be a fair test, no one should have extra test-specific information going in.

I've been emailing with the LSAC folks for a while on this, and they've agreed to answer any questions you have about what you should or shouldn't post.  Please don't overwhelm them with emails though.

If you see any posts on test day that appear to violate this policy, please be especially vigilant and use the "report to moderator" link. This way we can remove it before someone cheats.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LSAC on February 09, 2007, 06:57:48 AM
The Law School Admission Council (LSAC) understands and sympathizes with the anxiety that the LSAT causes test takers and their strong desire to discuss with their peers the questions that they have just taken on the LSAT.  However, LSAC prohibits such discussion, including the so-called “postmortem” discussion of test questions immediately after a particular test administration, because it has the potential to affect the fairness of the LSAT and the law school admission process. Certain LSATs are non-disclosed and their questions may be used again at a later administration of the test.  And even in the case of disclosed tests there may be circumstances in which LSAC may need to administer a test form to some test takers somewhat later than to others.  Discussion of test questions in a public forum like a website before the test is disclosed, even though its usefulness is limited by the memory and ability of the participants, makes information about that test widely available to anyone who has access to the web and may unfairly advantage test takers who see the discussion before they take the test. Since the number of admission slots in law schools is limited, such an unfair advantage could penalize those who took the test at an earlier time, including those very people engaging in the post-mortem discussion.

In an effort to ensure the fairness of the LSAT, LSAC requires test takers to sign a statement on the LSAT answer sheet saying that they agree not to “copy or retain examination questions or to transmit them to or discuss them with any other person in any form.” In addition, test takers sign a certification statement on the LSAT admission ticket agreeing that they have “no right to reproduce, recreate, distribute, or sell any of that test.”  In this statement they also certify that they “understand that the Law School Admission Council reserves the right to pursue all suitable courses of action to prevent fraudulent or unauthorized use of its property and to prevent the compromise of secure test material.”  Thus, test takers enter into a contract with LSAC that they will not discuss with others the test questions they have taken. In addition, LSAC’s “Instructions for the Day of the Test” state: “Legal action may be taken against anyone who removes test materials and/or reproduces test material in any way, or shares LSAT test content prior to LSAC’s disclosure of that test.”

If inappropriate public discussion of test questions on public websites reaches a point at which it threatens to undermine the fairness of the LSAT, injuring LSAT test takers, or at which it damages the value of non-disclosed LSAT test forms, LSAC would be compelled to take appropriate action to prevent such injury or damage.  These actions could include reporting violators to the LSAC Misconduct Committee.  Admission to the bar and the practice of law impose high standards of conduct and LSAC member law schools take very seriously the integrity of the candidates they admit.

LSAC does not seek to take special steps to enforce its prohibition on the inappropriate discussion of test questions.  We would prefer that test takers recognize that compromising test questions before they have been disclosed by LSAC runs counter to the general interest of test takers in a fair testing process, as well as to the personal interest of those discussing the questions, and voluntarily refrain from discussing LSAT questions until after they have been disclosed to test takers by LSAC.  However, we believe that we have an obligation to both our law school members and our test takers to protect the fairness and integrity of the LSAT and the law school admission process, and we take that obligation very seriously.

Jim Vaseleck
Executive Assistant to the President and Associate Counsel, LSAC
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: toponepercent on February 09, 2007, 07:09:15 AM
Andrew,

I commend you for helping LSAC and contributing to making the exam more equitable.

In this age of global instantaneous information, I think LSAC needs to reconsider how they administer the exam.  Your forum is one of many, and if it does not have the "hot" info that people are looking for, they can easily find it somewhere else.  We are now in an age with no time zones.  So, while it will make LSAC's job a bit harder, I think they need to tweak their exams for each time zone.  They need to assume that when students leave the exam they will go straight to a computer and e mail their friends about what they know.  It's not a good thing to assume, and it's entirely unfortunate, but realistically, that is the world we live in.

I am entirely supportive of Mr. Vaseleck's obligation to protect the integrity and fairness of the exam.  With pre Law students these days having multiple anonymous accounts with changing IP addresses, Mr. Vaseleck's job is not easy.  I suggest tweaking the exam in ways that make it counterproductive to people who try to share information in an unauthorized fashion.  LSAC would not necessarily have to reveal how it goes about doing so.  It could be something that people find out on their own on discussion boards.

Jonathan
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: Garry Shandling on February 09, 2007, 02:03:56 PM
Toponepercent -

The LSAC doesn't need to do anything but aggresively pursue anyone breaking the rules they agree to when they take the test and note any rule breaking in their LSAC file. 

If someone wants to break the rules by discussing the test, they run the risk of ruining their chances at getting admitted to law school, and/or getting accepted to the bar.  Only a few people need be caught for this to be an effective policy.

So long as LSAC is fair about explaining the crime and the punishment in advance, they will have no problem curbing the discussion they are trying to avoid.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: Johnny Stuffs His Mouth on February 09, 2007, 02:06:48 PM
Toponepercent -

The LSAC doesn't need to do anything but aggresively pursue anyone breaking the rules they agree to when they take the test and note any rule breaking in their LSAC file. 

If someone wants to break the rules by discussing the test, they run the risk of ruining their chances at getting admitted to law school, and/or getting accepted to the bar.  Only a few people need be caught for this to be an effective policy.

So long as LSAC is fair about explaining the crime and the punishment in advance, they will have no problem curbing the discussion they are trying to avoid.

I can't believe I'm going to side with toponepercent on this one, so I'm going to post this and then think long and hard about whether or not I really mean it.

But... this does not stop millions from Internet poker/illegal music downloads.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: Garry Shandling on February 09, 2007, 02:12:17 PM
Toponepercent -

The LSAC doesn't need to do anything but aggresively pursue anyone breaking the rules they agree to when they take the test and note any rule breaking in their LSAC file. 

If someone wants to break the rules by discussing the test, they run the risk of ruining their chances at getting admitted to law school, and/or getting accepted to the bar.  Only a few people need be caught for this to be an effective policy.

So long as LSAC is fair about explaining the crime and the punishment in advance, they will have no problem curbing the discussion they are trying to avoid.

I can't believe I'm going to side with toponepercent on this one, so I'm going to post this and then think long and hard about whether or not I really mean it.

But... this does not stop millions from Internet poker/illegal music downloads.

Because the stakes are just as high for internet poker and illegal music downloads as they are for admission to law school and the bar.

And precisely because it's impossible to catch EVERYONE, the punishment must be harsh and severe.  Will it stop all posting about questions?  Probably not.  But it will certainly minimize it.

Kudos, LSAC.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: bobknob on February 12, 2007, 11:06:53 PM
I think that the best course of action would be that LSAC doesn't reuse portions of any test, and never administers the same test at a later date for anyone, because that has the potential to be unfair regardless of whether people make post-mortems on LSD. If anything, the post-mortems on LSD do a remarkable job of demonstrating how foolish LSAC would be to ever reuse the same test material because it most definitely gives people the ability to cheat.

Whether you prohibit post-mortems on LSD or not is a non-issue, because the above helds in either instance.

Edited, because I said something slightly unfair.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: bobknob on February 12, 2007, 11:16:48 PM
Administer a different test in Hawaii and have the rest simultaneously across only four time zones.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LatherRinseRepeat on February 12, 2007, 11:18:07 PM
Administer a different test in Hawaii and have the rest simultaneously across only four time zones.

i wouldn't mind taking it at 6pm east coast time.  not a morning person.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LatherRinseRepeat on February 13, 2007, 07:53:10 PM
Administer a different test in Hawaii and have the rest simultaneously across only four time zones.

i wouldn't mind taking it at 6pm east coast time.  not a morning person.

I agree, 3pm west coast would be perfect.

I like to begin enjoying the morning at a time much later than noon.  ;)


Could you imagine what would happen if they really did make everyone take it at the same time??  All the morning people would fly to hawaii to take it, the afternoon folks would fly to cali, and then the insominacs who prefer to think later in the day would round up on the east coast. 
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: bobknob on February 13, 2007, 09:00:02 PM
I hope I don't sound like I'm being hard on LSAC, I love them to death, and you would too, if you knew what other grad students went through during their application cycles.

I just think it's lame of them to try to police a messageboard rather than actually change internal policies to combat cheating.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LatherRinseRepeat on February 26, 2007, 08:46:11 AM
Administer a different test in Hawaii and have the rest simultaneously across only four time zones.

i wouldn't mind taking it at 6pm east coast time.  not a morning person.

I agree, 3pm west coast would be perfect.

I like to begin enjoying the morning at a time much later than noon.  ;)


Could you imagine what would happen if they really did make everyone take it at the same time??  All the morning people would fly to hawaii to take it, the afternoon folks would fly to cali, and then the insominacs who prefer to think later in the day would round up on the east coast. 

How is that any different than administering it at 8:30am in every time zone? Afternoon people are uniformly screwed, morning people win and insomniacs are still screwed.

The scenario in discussion was that everyone takes it at the same moment....not necessarily the same time.  In the east, it would be 3pm, while in cali it would be noon, and Hawaii would be, 9am.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: dat_raw_n_tellect on February 28, 2007, 01:44:49 AM
The LSAT would not be able to be administered at the same time around the world.  When it is 3 PM Eastern Standard time...in other parts of the the world it is in the wee hours of the morning of the next day or really late in the evening of the same day.  For example, when it in 3 PM in New York, it is 4 AM (or 5 AM if it is daylight savings) in Tokyo.  When the U.S. takes the LSAT on a Saturday...countries in Asia do not take the test until Sunday morning (several hours later and in essence "the same day".)   
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: dat_raw_n_tellect on February 28, 2007, 02:08:18 AM
LOL  :D I edited out that last part...I didn't want to step on any toes.  But it is true!

Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LatherRinseRepeat on February 28, 2007, 07:24:24 AM
The LSAT would not be able to be administered at the same time around the world.  When it is 3 PM Eastern Standard time...in other parts of the the world it is in the wee hours of the morning of the next day or really late in the evening of the same day.  For example, when it in 3 PM in New York, it is 4 AM (or 5 AM if it is daylight savings) in Tokyo.  When the U.S. takes the LSAT on a Saturday...countries in Asia do not take the test until Sunday morning (several hours later and in essence "the same day".)   

I think you missed the point of why we were hypothesizing such a scenario.  By administering it all at the exact same moment, students would have the opportunity to fly and take the test at the time zone they feel most comfortable.  Those who think the best at 4am, would go to Tokyo and take it there.  And secondly, this would help LSAC cut down on cheating.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: dat_raw_n_tellect on February 28, 2007, 03:50:20 PM
Quote
I think you missed the point of why we were hypothesizing such a scenario.  By administering it all at the exact same moment, students would have the opportunity to fly and take the test at the time zone they feel most comfortable.  Those who think the best at 4am, would go to Tokyo and take it there.  And secondly, this would help LSAC cut down on cheating.

I think you misunderstood.  The fact is, the test is actually offered in the different time zones within hours of each other (technically making it "the same day"...offering the test at the same exact time in the world is not possible in my eyes.)  If the east coast would wait until 6:30 PM (even 6 PM...because those in other time zones would be at the testing centers) their time to start to "reconstructing" the test...this would not be an issue.  If the post-mortem began a few hours later then it wouldn't be as easy to cheat (via the internet).

I am not going to even address the issue of flying to a different country...as Penn Jillette said that is laughable at best.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LatherRinseRepeat on February 28, 2007, 04:00:24 PM
Quote
I think you missed the point of why we were hypothesizing such a scenario.  By administering it all at the exact same moment, students would have the opportunity to fly and take the test at the time zone they feel most comfortable.  Those who think the best at 4am, would go to Tokyo and take it there.  And secondly, this would help LSAC cut down on cheating.

I think you misunderstood.  The fact is, the test is actually offered in the different time zones within hours of each other (technically making it "the same day".)  If the east coast would wait until 6:30 PM (even 6 PM...because those in other time zones would be at the testing centers) their time to start to "reconstructing" the test...this would not be an issue.  If the post-mortem began a few hours later then it wouldn't be as easy to cheat (via the internet).

I am not going to even address the issue of flying to a different country...as Penn Jillette said that is laughable at best.

Sorry, i guess i'm just rich.  i would fly to Chicago just to get pizza.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: dat_raw_n_tellect on February 28, 2007, 04:04:11 PM
Quote
Sorry, i guess i'm just rich.  i would fly to Chicago just to get pizza.

lol I understand.  Or I wish I did!  Must be nice!  :D
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: LegalMatters on March 22, 2007, 08:42:52 PM
Well, if LSAC is scanning the threads here then I'd like to make one tiny recommendation for the test: Write software and computerize it! It's the 21st Century for Chrissakes. ETS figured it out and computerized the GRE.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: jfile-lamb on April 11, 2007, 11:25:32 AM
LSAT questions are copywrited by LSAC.  LSAC does not wish to disrupt online discussion of LSAT questions, but must take reasonable steps to safeguard its copyrights and to ensure fairness to those individuals who have obtained legitimate permission to reproduce LSAC questions.  Reproduction of test questions is prohibited without prior written permission.  Permission to reproduce test questions for distribution or posting on electronic sites must be obtainined in writing from LSAC. Thank you.

Jeannette File-Lamb
Director of Test Security, LSAC
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: F. Mercury on April 12, 2007, 10:14:42 PM
LSAT questions are copywrited by LSAC.  LSAC does not wish to disrupt online discussion of LSAT questions, but must take reasonable steps to safeguard its copyrights and to ensure fairness to those individuals who have obtained legitimate permission to reproduce LSAC questions.

I, for one, really think that this is lame. The LSAC is choosing make money off of old tests instead of having a level playing field. In a time when Kaplan will guarantee their very, very expensive product, the LSAC should be bending over backwards to make sure that broke students aren't placed at an even bigger disadvantage. Fairness for students takes a back seat to those who "obtained legitimate permission."

So how do you propose LSAC differentiates poor students from rich ones?  With rich kids taking advantage of unauthorized copies of prep material, LSAC could barely make profit.  Without profit, such a service wouldn't exist.  Now, that would be really lame.  In my opinion, LSAC is not the best agency in addressing the issue of faireness.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: TallisUmbras on June 02, 2007, 10:02:14 PM
Testing...Testing
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: 1654134681665465 on June 08, 2007, 10:43:04 AM
Quote
  The Law School Admission Council (LSAC) understands and sympathizes with the anxiety that the LSAT causes test takers 



Shut up.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: nehsief on June 12, 2007, 02:44:21 PM
Dear LSAC, is there a lagging in time taken LSAT around the world?

I know LSAT is administered in Hongkong and China. The normal start time for US except the June test is 10:30 am saturday morning east or west coast. This is not a problem for the US test centers, because the LSAT test last longer than 3 hours, so when east coast finishes, the west coast is in the middle of the test.

However, 10:30 am east coast time is 11:30pm Beijing time. I dont see how that can be the test time for either Hongkong or China, which are on Beijing time. And the earliest  finsih time of east coast could be around 2:30pm which is 6:30am Beijing time, again I dont see how this can be Beijing's test time.

If Beijing's test is administered several hours after the east coast finish time, then this is unfair to all test takers in US. This unfairness is not due to WWW makes it easy to spread test information because of site like this. It is unfair that LSAC wants to maximize its profit by expanding to other countries while not strictly creating fair test conditions. Imagine, someone could easily take a dummy test in US and telephone friends or clients in China about the test.

From what I know, the content of LSAT administered around the world is the same for each test.
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: nanochick on June 12, 2007, 05:35:04 PM
From what some people have posted on other sites, the LSAT was different in Asia.  They were all griping about it. 
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: TallisUmbras on June 21, 2007, 02:33:01 PM


P.S. The LSAC is a non-profit. They're not supposed to be making tons of money--just enough to cover operating costs. Unless Jim Bakker just got hired to head the LSAC, giving away tests for free shouldn't be a big deal.



lol.


Non-profit does not preclude the ability to make a "huge" profit. The name is a misnomer. 
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: Maddie on June 29, 2007, 07:19:32 AM
Hey if LSAC is still reading this thread, could you be kind and let us know if we get our scores today?  This could be a great way to demonstrate goodwill...
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: goodmartian on January 20, 2008, 12:31:48 PM
Reconstructing is more an axiety tactic than anything else
Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: Burning Sands, Esq. on June 16, 2008, 07:17:13 AM

The LSAC would like for us to remind you of the following:



The Law School Admission Council (LSAC) understands and sympathizes with the anxiety that the LSAT causes test takers and their strong desire to discuss with their peers the questions that they have just taken on the LSAT.  However, LSAC prohibits such discussion, including the so-called “postmortem” discussion of test questions immediately after a particular test administration, because it has the potential to affect the fairness of the LSAT and the law school admission process. Certain LSATs are non-disclosed and their questions may be used again at a later administration of the test.  And even in the case of disclosed tests there may be circumstances in which LSAC may need to administer a test form to some test takers somewhat later than to others.  Discussion of test questions in a public forum like a website before the test is disclosed, even though its usefulness is limited by the memory and ability of the participants, makes information about that test widely available to anyone who has access to the web and may unfairly advantage test takers who see the discussion before they take the test. Since the number of admission slots in law schools is limited, such an unfair advantage could penalize those who took the test at an earlier time, including those very people engaging in the post-mortem discussion.

In an effort to ensure the fairness of the LSAT, LSAC requires test takers to sign a statement on the LSAT answer sheet saying that they agree not to “copy or retain examination questions or to transmit them to or discuss them with any other person in any form.” In addition, test takers sign a certification statement on the LSAT admission ticket agreeing that they have “no right to reproduce, recreate, distribute, or sell any of that test.”  In this statement they also certify that they “understand that the Law School Admission Council reserves the right to pursue all suitable courses of action to prevent fraudulent or unauthorized use of its property and to prevent the compromise of secure test material.”  Thus, test takers enter into a contract with LSAC that they will not discuss with others the test questions they have taken. In addition, LSAC’s “Instructions for the Day of the Test” state: “Legal action may be taken against anyone who removes test materials and/or reproduces test material in any way, or shares LSAT test content prior to LSAC’s disclosure of that test.”

If inappropriate public discussion of test questions on public websites reaches a point at which it threatens to undermine the fairness of the LSAT, injuring LSAT test takers, or at which it damages the value of non-disclosed LSAT test forms, LSAC would be compelled to take appropriate action to prevent such injury or damage.  These actions could include reporting violators to the LSAC Misconduct Committee.  Admission to the bar and the practice of law impose high standards of conduct and LSAC member law schools take very seriously the integrity of the candidates they admit.

LSAC does not seek to take special steps to enforce its prohibition on the inappropriate discussion of test questions.  We would prefer that test takers recognize that compromising test questions before they have been disclosed by LSAC runs counter to the general interest of test takers in a fair testing process, as well as to the personal interest of those discussing the questions, and voluntarily refrain from discussing LSAT questions until after they have been disclosed to test takers by LSAC.  However, we believe that we have an obligation to both our law school members and our test takers to protect the fairness and integrity of the LSAT and the law school admission process, and we take that obligation very seriously.

Jim Vaseleck
Executive Assistant to the President and Associate Counsel, LSAC


http://www.lawschooldiscussion.org/prelaw/index.php/topic,82024.msg1984424.html#msg1984424

Title: Re: ***Please Read*** Do not post unreleased LSAT info
Post by: EarlCat on October 04, 2008, 11:33:47 AM
bump for Oct 08