Law School Discussion

Deciding Where to Go => Choosing the Right Law School => Topic started by: juliet on March 08, 2006, 02:04:21 PM

Title: Which florida school?
Post by: juliet on March 08, 2006, 02:04:21 PM
Please rank in order from best down.  UFL, Florida State, Stetson or Miami.  Thanks
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: bsrlegal on March 08, 2006, 04:58:19 PM
Wow, you opened a can of worms.  Look out for another UF vs. FSU debate.

Leaving aside all academic rankings such as USN&WR, here's how they rank with law firms in Florida:

#1: UF - over 1/4th of all lawyers in Florida are Levin Law grads
#2: FSU - especially north of I-4, but fine throughout the state
#3: Miami - South Florida only
#4: Stetson - Central Florida only
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: toomuchhype on March 08, 2006, 05:38:59 PM
I visited every school on your list except Stetson. 

Without thinking about the USNews or cost of attending,

1) UMiami b/c youre right there in presumably the best legal market of FL and the campus is the best. Administration has been the most personal and best overall compared to the other two.
2) FSU b/c the state courts are across the street. Its administration was a close second in the areas mentioned for miami.  Campus is prolly the ugliest of all 3
3) UF - ranked last mainly b/c its roughly 90 min away from any potential job markets. I felt like a number when I visited here.  However, I asked someone in the admissions about housing and they were the most helpful in this regard.  Campus/town area is second nicest.

However, with total cost included:

1) FSU
2) UF
3) Miami - just so damn expensive if youre pay the full sticker price

IF youre mostly going of rep, Id say

1) UF - well above the rest.  They expect you to attend here over the other schools based solely on its name... at least thats the impression I got.
2) UMiami
3) FSU - basically a tie with miami


Note: I didnt include stetson in any of these b/c I havent visited its campus nor have I researched the school.  Ranking it with the others w/o some of this info wouldnt be right
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: kree on March 08, 2006, 07:19:12 PM
Stetson has an amazing reputation in Florida, but of course you have to balance that with the cost of tuition (compared to UF and FSU)
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on March 08, 2006, 08:36:25 PM
Here are my thoughts-

1. FSU(government)/UF(other)- UF definitely has the best reputation statewide for getting jobs at the top firms, but FSU's location makes it a better choice for government work.

3. Miami- Located in the best legal market in Florida with the highest paying jobs, but the tuition/COL are also the highest of the four, so you won't have as much flexibility as you would with FSU/UF.

4. Stetson - Still a great reputation in Florida, beautiful campus, near the beach, but wages in the Tampa Bay area are the pits so it's going to be hard to pay off a Stetson education on what you'll likely make when you finish.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Intuition on March 31, 2006, 07:21:31 AM
I took a tour of UF earlier this week and I gotta say I was impressed with the new facilities. That place is about 180 degrees different from what it was 3-4 years ago. The library is brand new and most of (if not all) the classrooms are the same.

Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: lawnecon on March 31, 2006, 09:36:06 AM
Florida Coastal definitely had the best application  ;)
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: mccapj2 on March 31, 2006, 10:30:37 AM
I might make the argument that Jacksonville will be a bigger legal market in the near future.  More fortune 500 companies are opening satellite offices there and it has a population of over a million people.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: tobias on March 31, 2006, 11:24:22 AM
I might make the argument that Jacksonville will be a bigger legal market in the near future.  More fortune 500 companies are opening satellite offices there and it has a population of over a million people.

A million people over a very, very large land area not all of which is actually in Jacksonville  (which was until recently and may still be the second largest city by land mass in US (after Juneau) since Duval incorporated in the 80s), rather just on the "first coast". I agree though the market there is expanding.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: mccapj2 on March 31, 2006, 11:49:11 AM
It is still the second biggest city and the fact that it is so big leaves lots of space for development.
Title: Not a gator troll
Post by: loki13 on March 31, 2006, 01:56:07 PM
Which Florida school.... now there's a question.

I will preface this with my usual advice. Before picking a law school, you are best served by identifying your needs. What are you looking for in the law school you want? Once you get out of the T14, this is what you need to identify. There is no universal best answer- there is only what is best for you.

Do you need to live near a beach? Then you should go to Miami or FSU. So you want to live in a major urban area? Miami. Small city? Gainesville. In-between? FSU. Want to see politics up close? FSU. Want to practice your spanish skills and plan on doing some bilingual law? Miami. Want to lower your debt level? UF or FSU, unless there's a scholarship involved. I don't know much about Stetson, although I've heard their trial law program is very well respected.

And so on...

But let's say money is not an object, and you have no sense of self, and you just think, "Hey, I'd like to go to school in Florida!" How do you rank them?

hype thinks UF is all rerp, and on his visit, they had an attitude that you should feel blessed just to go there. Well, there's a reason for this. UF has traditionally been the crown jewel of the Florida University system, and the law school is the most prestigious one in Florida. Is it the 'best' one? Define 'best'. The argument about being too far away from a major metro area to get a job in Gainesville doesn't hold water- while it means that summer internships may require a move (as is the case with many schools), UF is much close to the growth markets of Orlando, Jacksonville, and Tampa than Miami is. But that's really a distinction without a difference.

You ask how to rank the schools. I think that the rankings in USNWR accurately depict the pecking order in the state. This is not the difference between Hah-vahd and Suffolk in the Boston area... but they're a little farther apart than BU and BC. Define what you want, then choose the school that tbest matches your desires. In my case, I only applied to UF, because I knew that it was the only school in Florida I'd be happy at. You couldn't pay me to live in Miami, and Tallahassee has always seemed like a cross between Albany and an ambien.

They are all, however, fine schools, and if you do well, you'll do okay in post-graduation employment.

Unless, of course, you're a UF graduate interviewing with an FSU graduate after the Gators just shellacked the 'Noles. Then you're on your own.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: bsrlegal on March 31, 2006, 02:14:32 PM
Unless, of course, you're a UF graduate interviewing with an FSU graduate after the Gators just shellacked the 'Noles. Then you're on your own.

 :D
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: kree on March 31, 2006, 03:35:49 PM
Unless, of course, you're a UF graduate interviewing with an FSU graduate after the Gators just shellacked the 'Noles. Then you're on your own.

 :D

hahahaha. the one reason i didn't apply to fsu (besides that tallahassee has a funny smell to it) is because i am a gator grad, and i just can't see myself living in the enemy's quarters, much less giving them my $$! go gators.
Title: Re: Not a gator troll
Post by: toomuchhype on March 31, 2006, 04:26:04 PM
You couldn't pay me to live in Miami

I've heard several ppl say this.  Why isnt Miami an attractive destination?  My brother, who lives in Melbourne, FL, says the same thing, but part of his reason stems from racism (says he doesnt want to live in a cheap quarters with immigrants) and a dislike for living in a major city.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on March 31, 2006, 04:43:08 PM
Floridians generally have a low opinion of Miami, even people who live in Miami. First of all, the majority of people living in Miami speak Spanish as a first language. The people I know who live/work in Miami use Spanish in their jobs. The sole reason why I wouldn't live there is that I do not have the Spanish proficiency I think I'd need to be successful there. It also has a reputation for having lots of drug-related crime and gangs. I think Tampa usually ranks as having more crime, but everyone still acts like Miami is much worse. I am not sure why.
Title: Close parsing + Miami
Post by: loki13 on March 31, 2006, 05:05:38 PM
Second things first....

Katia- as for the 'sense of self' comment, I thought the placement after the preceding paragraph would explain it, but here goes:
For those of you know what you're looking for in a school, you can choose which school in Florida meets your needs fairly easily. UF, FSU, and Miami are sufficiently different.
For those who just 'want to go to a school in Florida' and have no criteria (aka have no idea what they want in a school, therefore no sense of self), I was breaking down the relative merits irrespective of individual preferences.
Since I was accepted at UF, and will likely be going there this fall, then from your reading, I guess that I have no sense of self. Would that make me selfless? Senseless? A graduate of the University of Georgia? What does it all mean?!?!

hype- why I could not be paid to live in Miami, a list by Loki....
1. While I lived in (and loved) Boston, Miami is another beast entirely. Too big. Too urban. Too much city in the city. And no public transportation to get around. I like my New England and NorthEast cities... Miami? Not so much.
2. Cost- Well, I guess if you *paid* me to live there, this would be less of an issue, but it's expensive to live anywhere decent, and if you don't live somewhere decent, you have to deal with...
3. Crime- Okay, it's not as bad as it was in the 80s and 90s. But it's still bad. There are still offramps that you do not want to accidentally take. Miami makes Boston and New York City look like Mayberry.
4. Beaches- I'm not much of a beach person. When I want to go, Gainesville is close enough to the beach. But I don't need to go every day, or even every week, which is one of the few great things about Miami.
5. Hurricanes- They're getting worse. Just in case, I want to be a little bit in-land. Have you been in a hurricane? I've been through three... and each one had been weakened severely by the time it got to me. Not fun. The odds are low, but I prefer no odds (Gainesville got hit by one two years ago, but because it was inland, it mainly knocked down trees and caused some flooding- and it was the first real one in decades) to low odds.
6. Trees- I like 'em. Not just palm trees.
7. Tacky, tacky, tacky. Miami is capital U-gly. There are people there wearing things they shouldn't be let out of the house in. Some of the old architecture is nice, but most of it is Baroque-Garish, or worse, Industrial-Nasty.
8. Ever driven alligator alley? 'Nuff said. Most boring road way east of the Mississippi.
9. Don Johnson doesn't hang out there anymore. I still get that synthesizer music echoing in my head when I go through the area.

Most joking aside, it's just not for *me*. But it is for many other people- that's why it's a big city. Like many big cities, if you have a lot of money, it's really cool, if you have no money, it really sucks, and if you're in between, well, you probably live in the suburbs. It's just not a place I would chose to live (mainly for 1, 3, 6, and 7). Many others would thrive there. I also have young children, so I have the added concern of looking for a school system... and while Gainesville doesn't have the best in the nation, it has ones that are much better than Miami's (in the areas that I can afford to live).

I've visited Miami many times (my brother went to school in Boca Raton). There's some nice stuff down there. Great to visit, but I wouldn't want tot live there.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: toomuchhype on April 01, 2006, 10:11:47 AM
Hahaha
Why does everyone always bring up hurricanes with the Miami Hurricanes?  But seriously though, I dont think hurricanes are that big of a deal.  Ive lived on an outer banks island in NC since '89, so ive dealt with my fair share of hurricanes.  We never left our house for one yet, though there hasnt been anything tooo major.  Its usu front row or poorly located houses that get hit the worst.  (I guess a house on an island isnt exactly positioned great, but im generally speaking here).

I agree with the traffic part.  The lack of public transit is one thing that turned me off about the city too. (for this, nyc and dc cant be beat imo).

loki, you keep bringing up this sense of self stuff.  I applied to all 3 fl schools b/c I figured i had more options of more city-like options near the beach than in other states in the SE.  I grew up near the beach and I want to live near one when I get older too. 

The main distinction b/n the schools I know is that FSU prolly does better for the gulf coast area, but I dont know what the diff b/n the gulf and the atlantic.  (Never been to the gulf).  From visiting the schools, FSU also seemed the most southern of the bunch.  The biggest turn-off about FSU was that the class I sat in on had a about 5 ppl come in late and the last one was about 20 mins late.  Also one student also asked a question saying, "I dont do math well."  Although seemingly trivial, I would prefer against the "I dont do math" mentality... I was a math major for crying out loud.

From my visit to UF, i thot the students had a sense of arrogance about themselves.  Its not obvious, but subtle, almost translating as confidence.  They just act like theyll get the best FL jobs w/o a doubt. They didnt even try to sell me with any hard facts about their employment.  I questioned its location away from any employment opportunities and they said dont worry about it, just sub-lease and work whereever you get a summer position.  Plenty of ppl do it and its not a big problem.  This is my biggest concern about UF, but the more I read into summer employment, the less I worry about this issue.  Students seemed the most focused here of the bunch.  I actually arrived a couple mins late to the class I was to sit in on and ppl didnt look too thrilled about such tardiness.  (I thought this was a plus.)

UMiami was the most diverse.  FSU might have better stats in this area, but UMiami is by wins the battle.  Think international and ppl from various locations in the nation(UMiami) v. a bunch of minority Floridians (FSU).  Seemed the most competitive out of the bunch, but still not that bad.  I think the cost breeds it.  Students still dont seem too worried about the debt issue when asked.  A lot of the 0Ls seem more interested in partying and going to the beach here, which made me think that focus is lacking from many.  Sure, going to the beach and having a chance to party is fun and all, but it shouldnt be the main issues 0Ls are concerned with imo.

I didnt like UF so much when first comparing them, but the more research I do about it, the more it becomes obvious why so many view it as the best.  Im gradually being won over tho and I think my deposit will be in the mail when it comes down to it.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on April 01, 2006, 10:20:10 AM
toomuchhype- what you said about the arrogance of UF is correct. It's pretty much like that at all levels. I was initially going to apply to UF for my in-state school, but because FSU really sold itself to me and I hate Gainesville, I decided to apply to FSU instead. The school just expects that people know it's the best in the state and that anyone who would choose to go elsewhere is just an idiot. I had the same problem with UF at the UG level as well. It seems like it uses the mentality that since the smartest people in the state go there, it's automatically the best school. Right now, FSU's student body is not significantly different numerically from UF's student body. 
Title: Averages can be misleading
Post by: loki13 on April 01, 2006, 10:57:07 AM
Read this knowing the following:

I spent this morning, after the mail carrier came and delivered my UF acceptance package, and in between changing diapers, doing the following-
1. Looking into my housing options.
2. Looking into my financing options.
3. Filling out my Application for Need-Based Scholarships and Grant Assitance. This was fun. On the form, it says it is due APRIL 1st. The web seite says not to do it until you've received your acceptance. I receivied my acceptance today *cough* April 1st.
4. Realizing I no longer have any proof I had an MMR vaccine, and daydreaming about long needles.
So, it looks like I'll be at UF.

Why are UF students so arrogant? Well, because the school *is* the best. Look at the quality of the overall University. Where is cutting-edge science being done? Where are professors publishing in academic journals? What University is making a difference not just in Florida, but in the world at large? I've seen countless 'experts' on subjects that were UF professors. I've never seen one that was an FSU professor. Add to that the UF honors program also draws the truly high achievers in the state, and you get a reason why they are the best University. As for the 25th - 75th percentile LSAT scores, those can be a little misleading, as UF also has a lot more truly high achievers and is thus more selective at the high end.
Last Cycle:
LSAT 170+
UF: 32/33
FSU: 12/13
(analysis: more high LSAT apps to UF, looks like the schools dinged the same person)
160+
UF: 331/651 (50.8%)
FSU: 344/427 (80.6%)
(analysis: more high LSAT apps to UF, and UF is much more selective at the high end)

And what about Gatorade??????

You can never define a University as 'best'. A student's experience, academic and otherwise, may be superior at FSU than it is at UF. A school is what you make of it. You may not get into a class with those famous professors at UF, or you might get a TA. But in the breadth of classes offered, in the overall rigor of the academics at the high end, and in the quality of the student body (again, at the high end), UF has an advantage.

None of this excuses the arrogance. I know from arrogance. Living in Boston, I knew, and worked with, Harvard grads and undergrads*. Some were really cool, nice people. Others suffered from acute Harvard-itis, which is the inability to keep yourself from dragging your alma mater into every conversation. You know the ones at the party- the ones who keep trying to steer the converstion until they can say, "Oh, I went to Harvard." What they forget is that your school doesn't make you- you make you. So it is with UF. If you go to UF so you can drink all day, and then drink all night, well, you have no right to feel superior to anyone else, for any reason. It goes along with my basic belief that it's a bad idea to be an obnoxious (rhymes with flick).

Pretentious is as pretentious does. Has nothing to do with your school.


*MIT ones as well, but they weren't showoffs. They just liked their toys.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: my 2 cents on April 01, 2006, 11:09:22 AM
My 2 cents

I am from Florida. I did undergrad at UF and know people attending and who have graduated from all 4 law schools.

First Stetson is below the other 3. For the most part it will only get you a job in Tampa and some in Orlando. I wouldn't recommend going there if you have other options.

As far as the other three there is no major difference. We aren't talking the difference between Harvard and a tier 3 school here. It depends on where you want to live. The only major difference being that FSU limits you most to northern Florida and southern Alabama areas. UM represents South Florida the best and places best in the Northeast out of the three. UF gives you good opportunities all over Florida and a bit in Atlanta.

However, UF has the lowest employment rate at graduation which is only 65%. This is below UM and FSU. To me this is a pretty startling number. The jobs attained by graduation are obviously the best jobs. Anything after that is the leftover positions which means low pay and undesirable areas.  My friends at UF told me that if you aren't in the top quarter to top third then you have a lot of work to do in attaining a great job. My friend graduated top 10% and had only 4 OCI interviews. My other friend graduated top 1/3 and had none. UF also has the lowest starting salary of the 3.  So based on reputation UF I would say seems a little overated when you look closer. Id imagine FSU and UM arent too much better, but the main point is that there isn't much difference between the schools and I would go where you feel comfortable.  This is why if you can get into a top 10 school go no matter what. All my friends at top schools got top jobs no matter where their ranking. I realize this might not be an option but when people choose lower schools with money over top  ivy schools they are making a big mistake

Also at FSU and UM i know alot of people work during their 2nd and 3rd years of law school because there is a huge legal market in Miami and a decent one in Tallahasee. Student can work to help pay their tuition while networking and getting jobs with those firms if they do a good job. This I think helps explain a little why UM and FSU have higher employment rates at graduation.  In Gaineville, these opportunities are scarce and the opportunity to work and gain experience during the year is almost nonexistent. Unless you want to end up getting a job at a small firm in Gainesville.

Anyways I just think these are some things to consider as I believe all of the schools have their positives and negatives but neither is that much better then the rest.

Oh and for undergrad I would rank it this way: UF and UM, FSU, and then Stetson
UF is by far the best undergrad for state. With UM the best private and closely behind if not even with UF now for undergrad. However UM has more of a northeastern feel, with UF all in staters.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on April 01, 2006, 11:28:26 AM
I think that the problem with UF and employment is the location. FSU and Miami offer students opportunities to to make connections in Tallahassee and Miami respectively, while Gainesville doesn't offer much of anything. In reality, a very small proportion of students get jobs through OCI, so the fact that people at Miami/FSU can work during the year for the government or firms gives those students a leg up over FSU graduates who have only the summers to network and get experience.

I do have to disagree with the assumption that there is no difference between UF/FSU and Miami. I live in Tampa and most jobs here go to UF/FSU/Stetson grads. People here don't see any reason why a person would attend Miami over Stetson if he/she wants to work in central Florida. FSU definitely does not limit people to north Florida. FSU has an excellent reputation in the Tampa Bay area.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: my 2 cents on April 01, 2006, 11:52:36 AM
I think that the problem with UF and employment is the location. FSU and Miami offer students opportunities to to make connections in Tallahassee and Miami respectively, while Gainesville doesn't offer much of anything. In reality, a very small proportion of students get jobs through OCI, so the fact that people at Miami/FSU can work during the year for the government or firms gives those students a leg up over FSU graduates who have only the summers to network and get experience.

I do have to disagree with the assumption that there is no difference between UF/FSU and Miami. I live in Tampa and most jobs here go to UF/FSU/Stetson grads. People here don't see any reason why a person would attend Miami over Stetson if he/she wants to work in central Florida. FSU definitely does not limit people to north Florida. FSU has an excellent reputation in the Tampa Bay area.

I think you misunderstood me a little. Stetson is a great school for Tampa and that is about it. Stetson great school? or is it actually a product of their grads all staying in Tampa and tooting their own horns because they couldn't get jobs anywere else.

Second for FSU. I meant to include Tampa area with northern Florida as an area where FSU students get jobs. You are right about that. However FSU has no reach into South Florida which is Florida's biggest legal market in soon to be the country's third most populous state.
So if you want to make the argument that FSU is better because it places third best in Tampa behind UF and Stetson, this is a kind of weak argument when it has virtually no placement in South Florida which is owned by UM and UF second.Try finding FSU's grads in South Florida. Very hard to do.

Unless you are talking about a top 14 national school, every regional school is going to have weaknesses in some area of placement is the bottom line, but it doesn't make one better then the other. It comes down to where you want to end up working.
So I stand by my point that the differnce between the top 3 schools is not much with Stetson lagging behind.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cayberr on April 01, 2006, 12:17:11 PM
my 2 cents, are you sure you're from Florida?  :)

People from out of state often believe that UM is a superior school compared to the other ones in Florida.  However, most people who actually live in this state (outside of Miami-Dade county) don't share that same high opinion of UM.

Stetson deserves more credit.  It's not a big name outside of Florida but law professors and professionals have a lot of respect for it.  You won't have a hard time finding people who applied to UF, FSU, and Stetson without giving UM a second look.

As for UF employment, it straight blows.  You should have seen my jaw drop when I was looking at the 2005 USNWR law school book.  Don't quote me on it but the c/o 2003 had a 57% employment rate at graduation.  It wasn't too pretty 9 months out either.

Second for FSU. I meant to include Tampa area with northern Florida as an area where FSU students get jobs. You are right about that. However FSU has no reach into South Florida which is Florida's biggest legal market in soon to be the country's third most populous state.
So if you want to make the argument that FSU is better because it places third best in Tampa behind UF and Stetson, this is a kind of weak argument when it has virtually no placement in South Florida which is owned by UM and UF second.Try finding FSU's grads in South Florida. Very hard to do.

Have you considered that maybe FSU grads have no interest in working in South Florida?  Tallahassee has a nice legal market too, not to mention the state capital.  Maybe people attend FSU because they want to work in politics and/or government?  Presence in South Florida is not a measure of greatness (and I'm not bashing SoFla, I live here). 
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: my 2 cents on April 01, 2006, 12:23:05 PM
Ha yes I am from Florida. Maybe I am not giving Stetson enough credit however it still lacks behind the other 3. The only way I could see someone going there over the others is because they want to work in Tampa or got a hefty scholarship.

Also, you are right about people thinking UM is a better school then the others from out of state. That is a product of UM having more out of staters go to UM and then go back to their respective areas.Whereas at UF everyone I know was from Florida. Also UM has probably the best rep or tied with UF in Dade as well as Broward and Palm Beach counties which is where the majority of Florida's population is.

Wow I didn't know those stats. Im trying to figure out where I want to go and those are just hard to figure out.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: my 2 cents on April 01, 2006, 12:49:55 PM


Have you considered that maybe FSU grads have no interest in working in South Florida?  Tallahassee has a nice legal market too, not to mention the state capital.  Maybe people attend FSU because they want to work in politics and/or government?  Presence in South Florida is not a measure of greatness (and I'm not bashing SoFla, I live here). 

Im not arguing they why, Im just stating the facts. Sure people who go to FSU might not have an interest in South Florida. The fact remains is that if you go there today and want to work in South Florida good luck. They have almost no presence, no hiring partners at firm, no grads who started big firms. UM and UF grads will get hired before them.

I have a friend at FSU who was telling me that they had a workshop lecture on how to get a job in South Florida and they were making excuses that large firms are only hiring lawyers with experience. That just is not the case. He came away from it pretty worried about trying to get a job in the area.
I have another friend who just graduated top 15 percent and he couldnt get any interviews in south florida. He ended up working for a 10 man firm in tampa.

So regardless of the why it is, I believe that is the present state and if you want to work in the area I would suggest going to UM or UF
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cayberr on April 01, 2006, 12:53:37 PM
Wow I didn't know those stats. Im trying to figure out where I want to go and those are just hard to figure out.

For c/o 2004, from USNWR 2007 issue.

graduation, 9months

FSU  85.0   98.9
UM   73.4   93.1
UF    65.9   96.0

Those are just the numbers, lots of room for interpretation.  I don't have the employment stats for the other schools in Florida since I don't have a hard copy of the new issue.  Needless to say, these stats mean diddly if you do everything you're supposed to and excel in law school.  However 65.9% is low for the best school in the state, teeming with gator alumni.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: The Name's Dali on April 01, 2006, 01:44:45 PM
I think the difference is because firms are only going to hire from the top 1/3 at UF, FSU, and UM.  That means that the other 2/3 needs to find jobs in business and government.  Since both are in major cities (with FSU in the capital), FSU and UM students have a leg up for these types of jobs.

If you do the breakdown:

UF
57.5% law firm
7.5% business
18.8% government

FSU
44.1% law firm
6.2% business
31.8% government

UF places 13% more of their grads in a firm (not a huge difference, but remember that UF has a class size of 400 vs. FSU's of 250).  As expected, FSU places better in government, due to its location.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Contract2008 on April 01, 2006, 02:15:53 PM

Those employement stats you guys have posted don't mean much. 

UF's employment stat "seems" lower than UM and FSU because it has a reporting rate of 85%.  FSU and UM have about 50%.

Realistically, most law school graduates get about 40-60K as starting salary in FL.  The high employment stats from UM and FSU that you see came from graduates who reported, thus, most likely the ones who got great jobs. This means the ones who got low paying job or unemployed were not included.

By the way, some of those 99% and 98% employment rates that you see, don't include people who did not report and might be unemployed.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: bsrlegal on April 01, 2006, 02:21:51 PM
Wow I didn't know those stats. Im trying to figure out where I want to go and those are just hard to figure out.

For c/o 2004, from USNWR 2007 issue.

graduation, 9months

FSU  85.0   98.9
UM   73.4   93.1
UF    65.9   96.0

Those are just the numbers, lots of room for interpretation.  I don't have the employment stats for the other schools in Florida since I don't have a hard copy of the new issue. 

I hesitate to weigh in at this point in this post as I think we're over-analyzing.  Stats are what you make of them, and people can be successful at any of the schools we're talking about.  Never the less, I do have a hard copy of the new rankings, and I'll add Stetson's to the above list:
Stetson 49.4 91.1

Now, a couple of points:

First, directly quoting USNWR 2007 edition on their ranking methodology: "This year, we slightly modified our law school ranking methodology.  After consulting with law school placement officials, we reduced the weight given to the employment rate of law school grads immediately upon finishing their studies and increased the weight placed on their employment rate nine months after graduation."

This quote would seem to suggest that employment rate at graduation is not significant.  In fact, in the weighting percentage, employment rate at graduation counts for 4% of the rank, while employment at nine months counts 12%.

Second, when I visited UF, I specifically asked the Director of Career Services about UF's employment rate at graduation, and the reply was that UF doesn't track that number, because they don't request employment data from their grads until 6 months, after they've had time to take the bar.  This info begs the question, where does the graduation data come from anyway?

Anyways, for myself, as a matriculant to UF this fall, I'm not the least bit concerned with these stats.  If I do the job I expect of myself in school, I'll have no problem finding a job.  Incidentally, I would say the same thing had I chosen FSU or Miami.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: The Name's Dali on April 01, 2006, 02:40:19 PM

UF's employment stat "seems" lower than UM and FSU because it has a reporting rate of 85%.  FSU and UM have about 50%.
 

Actually, my stats come from the ABA:

http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/aba5812.pdf

http://officialguide.lsac.org/OFFGUIDE/pdf/aba5219.pdf

The reporting rate is 100% from UF and 98.5% from FSU.  Of course, the ABA does not report data on when graduates were employed, just that fact that they are employed now.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Contract2008 on April 01, 2006, 02:50:58 PM
Actually, my stats come from the ABA:

Checks out the stats published by US News, it will tell you a whole different story.

Think about it, is it realistic to expect 100% of graduates to voluntarily reports his/her private salary information?

I would think that most will probably report, but some 25%-50% will not (especially the ones who are unemployed or making 30K), unless we are talking about Harvard grads who all are making 125K, the usual and expected amount out of them.   
Title: Clarification, please?
Post by: loki13 on April 01, 2006, 07:17:57 PM
Chapelle,

As far as I know, and from the example you gave, the ABA does not report salary figures, just position (government, private etc.) and % employed figures.

Contract's numbers (from USNWR) does include salaries, and does have the statistical problems that was the point of this thread.

If the ABA does publish salary figures, I will stand corrected. Please advise as to where we can find them.
Title: Der....
Post by: loki13 on April 01, 2006, 07:51:20 PM
Still fried from the Bball game. Starting salaries was the point of the starting salaries-wrong, or just false thread I was writing on earlier.

This is the Florida school threads.

I need some sleep.
Title: Re: Der....
Post by: The Name's Dali on April 01, 2006, 11:04:27 PM
Which school should you choose?

The one that's going to the national championship baby!
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on April 02, 2006, 03:20:36 PM
Floridians generally have a low opinion of Miami, even people who live in Miami. First of all, the majority of people living in Miami speak Spanish as a first language. The people I know who live/work in Miami use Spanish in their jobs. The sole reason why I wouldn't live there is that I do not have the Spanish proficiency I think I'd need to be successful there. It also has a reputation for having lots of drug-related crime and gangs. I think Tampa usually ranks as having more crime, but everyone still acts like Miami is much worse. I am not sure why.

I would have to disagree with this.

I live in Tampa and i LOVE Miami.

Dont speak spanish(a few words) but Ive never had a problem finding someone down there that spoke English.

I would be curious to know how many English-only lawyers get jobs down there.
Or Broward or Palm Beach
Title: About that Miami thing
Post by: loki13 on April 02, 2006, 03:50:17 PM
There's two kindsw of people...

those who divide others into arbitrary groups, and those who don't.

Anyway, there are many ways to divide Florida. You could say there's the extreme south (Miami area), Tampa Bay area, Orlando-Jax middle area, and Panhandle. But the biggest distinction is between Miami (and surrounding area) and the rest of Florida. As a somewhat-native Floridian myself (born in Dunedin, baby!), I would agree with assessment that Floridians generally have a low opinion of Miami. Maybe those aren't the right words- but they view it a a completely different area. To rural Floridians, it represents the evils of the Big City (much like upstate New Yorkers view NYC). To many others with a more, well, bigoted take on things, it is too multicultural. Your post said it all...

You didn't have a problem finding someone who spoke English.

First, there are some areas of Miami where this isn't quite true, although they are unlikely to be visited by the average UM student. Second, would you make this statement about any other city in Florida? This is the type of thing I said after I visited Amsterdam- I didn't have trouble finding someone who spoke English. Not the type of thing you'd expect to hear after visiting most cities in the US. That said, I don't think of that as a disadvantage. The latino culture there adds a vibrancy and feeling to the city that other cities lack or express differently. It also means that it is helpful (although certainly not required) to know some Spanish if you'd like to go into certain legal fields in S. Florida and want to deal with large segments of the population, or you're looking into international law, because the focus there is to the south.

Look, Miami, for some people, is a decent place to be. Some people like it. Some people *love* it and couldn't imagine living elsewhere. But if I was thinking of attending UM from out of state, and hadn't lived in a big city before, or had only lived in Northeast big cities, I would definitely check it out before committing.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: toomuchhype on April 02, 2006, 07:16:41 PM
The USNews employment stats get thrown around way too much for the majority of schools talked about.  Here is a passage of their calculation of placement in the 2007 mag, which says:

Quote
Placement Success (.20):
Success is determined by employment rates for 2004 graduates at graduation (20 percent) and nine months after (70 percent) as well as their bar passage rate (10 percent).  Employment rates include graduates reported as working or pursuing graduate degrees: for the nine-month rate only, 25 percent of those whose status is unknown are also counted as working.  Those not seeking jobs are excluded. 

The rest of that part goes on about the bar passage rate stuff.  Anyways, look how it says, "25 percent of those whose status is unknown are also counted as working."  This raises my eyebrows a bit.

Personally, I would rely on stats coming from LSAC more than USNews.  You can also call up the schools and ask them for the specifics.  Most of them have this information on hand and should be willing to provide it to you esp. if youre admitted.  You might even be able to save the school the time and locate it on their website somewhere.  From what I remember, UM and UF both had rates right around 96% and 97% for student employed 9 mo. after grad or pursuing advanced degrees.  Also looking at NALP, more large firm do OCI at UF than UM and i bet FSU and Stetson too.  You can check out the firms website to see how many grads from each actually work at the firms too if youre willing to invest the time.  I remember the ones in Miami had a lot of T14 and UM grads, but the next most common were UF grads.  I dont even remember seeing any FSU or Stetson ppl.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on July 10, 2007, 08:10:26 AM
anyone think stetson would ever surpass miami in the rankings?

wouldnt that be a hoot?  ;D
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cui bono? on July 10, 2007, 10:33:49 AM
would be interesting
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: TurboGirl on July 10, 2007, 09:41:44 PM
I've been a Floridian for 20 years and can't recall ever meeting anyone who spoke about Miami negatively. Big city, diverse, lots of culture, beaches, hundreds of bars, clubs, movie theaters, restaurants, palm trees everywhere, awesome weather. I think its great.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: jillibean on July 11, 2007, 05:46:44 AM
tag
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: juliemccoy on July 11, 2007, 09:08:18 AM
I've been a Floridian for 20 years and can't recall ever meeting anyone who spoke about Miami negatively.

Wow.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: XxGodJrxX on July 11, 2007, 09:18:19 AM
People don't like Miami because they are racist POS.  I can't wait until the Hispanic invasion forces you all to go to Canada. 
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: TurboGirl on July 11, 2007, 09:45:17 AM

Wow.

I'm surprised you are surprised. We must come from completely different parts of Florida.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: sinkfloridasink on July 11, 2007, 11:03:31 AM

Wow.

I'm surprised you are surprised. We must come from completely different parts of Florida.

I'm surprised you're surprised she's surprised. I've lived in Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, Orlando, and now Gainesville, and everywhere I've heard positive and negative things about Miami (especially in Jax/Gville). Miami just isn't everyone's cup of tea (it's definitely not mine), and it isn't because we're all "racist POS's."
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cui bono? on July 11, 2007, 11:04:47 AM
I've been a Floridian for 20 years and can't recall ever meeting anyone who spoke about Miami negatively. Big city, diverse, lots of culture, beaches, hundreds of bars, clubs, movie theaters, restaurants, palm trees everywhere, awesome weather. I think its great.

here's a neg:  traffic; hurricanes;  ppl speak to u in Spanish
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: sinkfloridasink on July 11, 2007, 11:07:41 AM
I've been a Floridian for 20 years and can't recall ever meeting anyone who spoke about Miami negatively. Big city, diverse, lots of culture, beaches, hundreds of bars, clubs, movie theaters, restaurants, palm trees everywhere, awesome weather. I think its great.

here's a neg:  traffic; hurricanes;  ppl speak to u in Spanish

Traffic, hurricanes, Spanish are all negatives people, but also the "big city," "clubs," and "palm trees everywhere part" turn a lot of people off. Not to mention a lot of people find the culture not to their particular liking.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: TurboGirl on July 11, 2007, 11:37:13 AM


I'm just stating why I like it, I don't doubt that people may not like it for those same reasons. Generally though, those things are what are spoken about, in my experience, as some of the highlights. I'm not a club person myself, but being a night bird, do appreciate the fact that there is life going on outside after dark and everything doesn't close down at 9 or 10. It makes things feel more lively. I guess nothing negative was a stretch, thats not really what I meant. People do complain often about expensive drinks, and the traffic can get bad and that sort of thing. What I meant was these are over shadowed by praise of other things.

People mostly talk about what a good time they've had and how they want to go back. It's always been considered one of the "hot spots" in my experience. We may just be interacting with different demographics in our discussions of Miami.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: sinkfloridasink on July 11, 2007, 11:41:57 AM


I'm just stating why I like it, I don't doubt that people may not like it for those same reasons. Generally though, those things are what are spoken about, in my experience, as some of the highlights. I'm not a club person myself, but being a night bird, do appreciate the fact that there is life going on outside after dark and everything doesn't close down at 9 or 10. It makes things feel more lively. I guess nothing negative was a stretch, thats not really what I meant. People do complain often about expensive drinks, and the traffic can get bad and that sort of thing. What I meant was these are over shadowed by praise of other things.

People mostly talk about what a good time they've had and how they want to go back. It's always been considered one of the "hot spots" in my experience. We may just be interacting with different demographics in our discussions of Miami.

The demographics thing most definitely comes in to play. When you get up to places like Gainesville and Jacksonville, you get a lot of people that act as if Miami is a foreign country that they wouldn't step foot in. I think people have a good time there, but in my opinion, it's somewhere I'd rather visit than live.

I think it can be summed up thusly:

If you're a "club" kind of person, you'd probably enjoy Miami.
If you're a "bar" person, I'd probably stay away.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cui bono? on July 11, 2007, 11:43:14 AM
I've been a Floridian for 20 years and can't recall ever meeting anyone who spoke about Miami negatively. Big city, diverse, lots of culture, beaches, hundreds of bars, clubs, movie theaters, restaurants, palm trees everywhere, awesome weather. I think its great.

here's a neg:  traffic; hurricanes;  ppl speak to u in Spanish

Traffic, hurricanes, Spanish are all negatives people, but also the "big city," "clubs," and "palm trees everywhere part" turn a lot of people off. Not to mention a lot of people find the culture not to their particular liking.

Being from NY, that was a def appeal for me
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: sinkfloridasink on July 11, 2007, 11:48:28 AM
I've been a Floridian for 20 years and can't recall ever meeting anyone who spoke about Miami negatively. Big city, diverse, lots of culture, beaches, hundreds of bars, clubs, movie theaters, restaurants, palm trees everywhere, awesome weather. I think its great.

here's a neg:  traffic; hurricanes;  ppl speak to u in Spanish

Traffic, hurricanes, Spanish are all negatives people, but also the "big city," "clubs," and "palm trees everywhere part" turn a lot of people off. Not to mention a lot of people find the culture not to their particular liking.

Being from NY, that was a def appeal for me

And that's why there are a ton of NY transplants in S. FL. And another reason why a lot of Floridians hate S. FL. And GOD do I hate the Yankees. /baseballrant
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cui bono? on July 11, 2007, 11:52:08 AM
<--- mets fan  :P
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on July 11, 2007, 02:13:54 PM

Wow.

I'm surprised you are surprised. We must come from completely different parts of Florida.

I'm surprised you're surprised she's surprised. I've lived in Ft. Lauderdale, Jacksonville, Orlando, and now Gainesville, and everywhere I've heard positive and negative things about Miami (especially in Jax/Gville). Miami just isn't everyone's cup of tea (it's definitely not mine), and it isn't because we're all "racist POS's."

I agree too. Most people I know have absolutely no interest in Miami because it's a different lifestyle from the rest of Florida.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on July 11, 2007, 02:16:15 PM
i LOVE Miami.

just so dang $$$
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: yykm on July 11, 2007, 02:44:06 PM
Miami could be so much better if it had (1) better public transit and (2) less sprawl.  Public transit is the key.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on July 11, 2007, 02:56:49 PM
Miami could be so much better if it had (1) better public transit and (2) less sprawl.  Public transit is the key.

well, it cant sprawl anymore...
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 11, 2007, 03:04:38 PM
Please rank in order from best down.  UFL, Florida State, Stetson or Miami.  Thanks

without question, if you have to go to a florida school, go to UF.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Forget Money, Read a Book on July 11, 2007, 03:26:44 PM
With regard to UF, FSU, and UMiami, it matters more about how well you do than where you go.  I think that because of Florida's geographic location (being somewhat away from other populous states) students from the area matriculate because they just "want" to stay in Florida.  I did my UG in Florida and most of my friends just went back home afterwards.  Not because they couldn't go anywhere else, but b/c they wanted to.  That being said, I wouldn't worry to much about out of state placement stats, or placement within the state for that matter. 

Yes, its true FSU doesn't have a presence in S. Florida, but I think its due to self selection.  UMiami dominating S. Florida is as a result of the same thing.  Honestly people, they are all very similar in terms of admissions standards.  It's pretty frequent that an applicant applying to all three at the same time will either get into all three or dinged by all three.  Which one you choose should just be based on where you want to spend law school.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Forget Money, Read a Book on July 11, 2007, 03:27:48 PM
personally, i'd judge based on cost so would choose UF, FSU, UMiami in that order.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Butters Stotch on July 13, 2007, 01:53:39 PM
Miami could be so much better if it had (1) better public transit and (2) less sprawl.  Public transit is the key.

well, it cant sprawl anymore...

Don't worry, our gubmint is working hand-in-hand with Big Sugar on plans to pave over the Everglades.  Lots of places to build new $250k, 800 sq. ft condos are on the horizon!   :P

Also, FIU > all

HTH!
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: yykm on July 13, 2007, 02:38:10 PM
personally, i'd judge based on cost so would choose UF, FSU, UMiami in that order.
If youre a non-resident, the cost becomes trivial.  (What's a few grand here or there once you're in the 40k range?)  However, FL residency doesnt seem to be too difficult to obtain if you jump through the loops, so your cost argument should hold true.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: gop29403 on July 14, 2007, 08:55:27 PM
i go to stetson and i'll tell you go wherever you want to go.  visit them all and go on where you are comfortable.  no matter where you go you'll get a job.  i'm in the top 1/3 at stetson and i've had no problem interviewing with firms and clerking and the such.  people at UF do like to act like unless you go to UF you're not getting a job and you're not going to be able to get a job.  that's entirely untrue.  if you're a hard worker and can sell yourself you'll get a good job.  it's mostly about who you know.  i've talked with partners in several big firms in florida and south carolina and georgia.  i asked each does it really matter where you go to school.  and they all told me to some extent someone who goes to UF and is top 10% will get interviewed over someone who goes to florida coastal and is top 10%.  uf, miami, fsu, and stetson are all respected around the state.  the my current boss told me straight up i really don't give a *&^% if someone went to florida or whereever.  he said you're top 1/3 at stetson and i would hire you 10/10 times over someone who comes in expecting a job b/c they went to florida.  once you get to interviews they don't care what school you went to they care about if they could see themselves working with you for the next 5-10 years and if you seem like you are going to work your ass off for them.  again pick where you're happy.  if you need help deciding talk to someone who is in a big firm in florida. don't ask law students they're all going to see their own school and talk down the other ones to make themselves feel better about getting a job after school.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Butters Stotch on July 14, 2007, 10:10:21 PM
personally, i'd judge based on cost so would choose UF, FSU, UMiami in that order.
If youre a non-resident, the cost becomes trivial.  (What's a few grand here or there once you're in the 40k range?)  However, FL residency doesnt seem to be too difficult to obtain if you jump through the loops, so your cost argument should hold true.

The talk here is that the FL legislature is considering making it much harder to establish FL residency for tuition purposes, though as of this writing I don't think they've taken action.

There's a big to-do over tuition costs here as well.  A former governor and senator is suing the state over who has the right to determine tuition costs.  A lot may change over the next year or two.  http://www.tallahassee.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070707/CAPITOLNEWS/707070326/1010/NEWS01
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: cui bono? on July 17, 2007, 06:36:46 AM
St. Thomas and Nova are other options but they aren't that respected

i go to stetson and i'll tell you go wherever you want to go.  visit them all and go on where you are comfortable.  no matter where you go you'll get a job.  i'm in the top 1/3 at stetson and i've had no problem interviewing with firms and clerking and the such.  people at UF do like to act like unless you go to UF you're not getting a job and you're not going to be able to get a job.  that's entirely untrue.  if you're a hard worker and can sell yourself you'll get a good job.  it's mostly about who you know.  i've talked with partners in several big firms in florida and south carolina and georgia.  i asked each does it really matter where you go to school.  and they all told me to some extent someone who goes to UF and is top 10% will get interviewed over someone who goes to florida coastal and is top 10%.  uf, miami, fsu, and stetson are all respected around the state.  the my current boss told me straight up i really don't give a sh*t if someone went to florida or whereever.  he said you're top 1/3 at stetson and i would hire you 10/10 times over someone who comes in expecting a job b/c they went to florida.  once you get to interviews they don't care what school you went to they care about if they could see themselves working with you for the next 5-10 years and if you seem like you are going to work your ass off for them.  again pick where you're happy.  if you need help deciding talk to someone who is in a big firm in florida. don't ask law students they're all going to see their own school and talk down the other ones to make themselves feel better about getting a job after school.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 17, 2007, 12:29:09 PM
i go to stetson and i'll tell you go wherever you want to go.  visit them all and go on where you are comfortable.  no matter where you go you'll get a job.  i'm in the top 1/3 at stetson and i've had no problem interviewing with firms and clerking and the such.  people at UF do like to act like unless you go to UF you're not getting a job and you're not going to be able to get a job.  that's entirely untrue.  if you're a hard worker and can sell yourself you'll get a good job.  it's mostly about who you know.  i've talked with partners in several big firms in florida and south carolina and georgia.  i asked each does it really matter where you go to school.  and they all told me to some extent someone who goes to UF and is top 10% will get interviewed over someone who goes to florida coastal and is top 10%.  uf, miami, fsu, and stetson are all respected around the state.  the my current boss told me straight up i really don't give a *&^% if someone went to florida or whereever.  he said you're top 1/3 at stetson and i would hire you 10/10 times over someone who comes in expecting a job b/c they went to florida.  once you get to interviews they don't care what school you went to they care about if they could see themselves working with you for the next 5-10 years and if you seem like you are going to work your ass off for them.  again pick where you're happy.  if you need help deciding talk to someone who is in a big firm in florida. don't ask law students they're all going to see their own school and talk down the other ones to make themselves feel better about getting a job after school.
let me preface this by saying that i think stetson is a fine school, especially for trial attorneys. it was my home away from home for my last semester of law school as i was doing an externship in the tampa area and was using stetson facilities to work on my writing requirement. i found the students there to be bright and motivated.

that said, i think that you are providing people with misleading information when you say that a stetson student is on equal footing with a florida or fsu student when it comes to getting a job in florida biglaw. that's simply not true and while i can't argue with you about your personal experience, i don't think you are doing anyone here a favor by trying to sell your experience as the general trend.  the reality is being even top 10% at stetson doesn't guarantee you biglaw. ANYWHERE. and while certain partners for whatever reason may prefer stetson students, if you do a simple search of attorneys at major florida firms, even tampa firms, like holland and knight, carlton fields, etc., you will find far more fsu and florida alums than stetson ones and i promise you that's not because stetson alums don't want those jobs.

if a person already has connections with a firm prior to law school and are virtually guaranteed a job on the basis of those connections, you are right; there's no reason to go somewhere based on just rank. however rank plays a huge part in getting your foot in the door for an interview.

hell if you don't believe me (and you probably shouldn't), just do your own research and check the employment stats of the various florida schools. i assure you that there is a substantial discrepancy in placement there.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on July 17, 2007, 02:34:05 PM
The reality of the matter is that top 10% at any Florida school isn't going to guarantee you biglaw. I know plenty of people at UF who say that you may get OCI interviews if you are top 10% but even then the callbacks may be few and far between.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 17, 2007, 02:54:38 PM
The reality of the matter is that top 10% at any Florida school isn't going to guarantee you biglaw. I know plenty of people at UF who say that you may get OCI interviews if you are top 10% but even then the callbacks may be few and far between.

that's likely correct. however it is an absolute fact that the top 10% at florida has a better shot than the top 10% at stetson.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: stevensjunk on July 17, 2007, 03:11:50 PM
This may be a little off topic, but if someone was not considering a BIGLAW job, and wanted to work for the government or a small firm, how important is the school? does rank within the school mean more?
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: yykm on July 17, 2007, 03:55:07 PM
While I'm transferring out of UF, top 10% meets the reqts for all OCI firms, except the IP ones.  I know several top 10% students who have biglaw SA jobs as 1Ls.  If you want biglaw and are top 10% at UF, you can get biglaw.  The only reason anyone in the top 10% doesnt get biglaw is due to choice or doing something stupid.

NOTE: the biglaw I described doesnt include biglaw in the major markets - NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago.  Therefore, obtaining a biglaw position at one of the firm's smaller offices is available.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on July 17, 2007, 05:02:06 PM
While I'm transferring out of UF, top 10% meets the reqts for all OCI firms, except the IP ones.  I know several top 10% students who have biglaw SA jobs as 1Ls.  If you want biglaw and are top 10% at UF, you can get biglaw.  The only reason anyone in the top 10% doesnt get biglaw is due to choice or doing something stupid.

NOTE: the biglaw I described doesnt include biglaw in the major markets - NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago.  Therefore, obtaining a biglaw position at one of the firm's smaller offices is available.

Firms choose you for OCI, so even if you are top 10% it doesn't mean you're going to get the interview or the callback. I also know several students there who say that their group of friends who are in the top 10% didn't have the same luck you mentioned.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: yykm on July 18, 2007, 05:20:20 AM
While I'm transferring out of UF, top 10% meets the reqts for all OCI firms, except the IP ones.  I know several top 10% students who have biglaw SA jobs as 1Ls.  If you want biglaw and are top 10% at UF, you can get biglaw.  The only reason anyone in the top 10% doesnt get biglaw is due to choice or doing something stupid.

NOTE: the biglaw I described doesnt include biglaw in the major markets - NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago.  Therefore, obtaining a biglaw position at one of the firm's smaller offices is available.

Firms choose you for OCI, so even if you are top 10% it doesn't mean you're going to get the interview or the callback. I also know several students there who say that their group of friends who are in the top 10% didn't have the same luck you mentioned.
Yes, at UF, firms choose who they want to interview for OCI.  However, it doesnt make much sense that of all the firms that come for UF's OCI that the top 10% won't have interviews.  Which students are the firms going to interview over the top 10%?  Even as a 1L with decent grades (~33%), I had 2 Spring OCI interviews out of 6 bids.  I didnt receive any offers, but that doesnt mean anything since firms dont really hire 1Ls.  More later...
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: Zenith Electronics Corp. on July 18, 2007, 05:30:57 AM
this thread is not approved.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 18, 2007, 01:37:22 PM
While I'm transferring out of UF, top 10% meets the reqts for all OCI firms, except the IP ones.  I know several top 10% students who have biglaw SA jobs as 1Ls.  If you want biglaw and are top 10% at UF, you can get biglaw.  The only reason anyone in the top 10% doesnt get biglaw is due to choice or doing something stupid.

NOTE: the biglaw I described doesnt include biglaw in the major markets - NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago.  Therefore, obtaining a biglaw position at one of the firm's smaller offices is available.

Firms choose you for OCI, so even if you are top 10% it doesn't mean you're going to get the interview or the callback. I also know several students there who say that their group of friends who are in the top 10% didn't have the same luck you mentioned.

That may or may not be true. However, even if it is, do you not see how that undermines the contention that Stetson students in the 1/3 of their class are virtually guaranteed a job? After all, UF is a T1 school and Stetson is T3. The reputations nationally and even in-state aren't close to comparable.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: queencruella on July 18, 2007, 02:06:14 PM
While I'm transferring out of UF, top 10% meets the reqts for all OCI firms, except the IP ones.  I know several top 10% students who have biglaw SA jobs as 1Ls.  If you want biglaw and are top 10% at UF, you can get biglaw.  The only reason anyone in the top 10% doesnt get biglaw is due to choice or doing something stupid.

NOTE: the biglaw I described doesnt include biglaw in the major markets - NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago.  Therefore, obtaining a biglaw position at one of the firm's smaller offices is available.

Firms choose you for OCI, so even if you are top 10% it doesn't mean you're going to get the interview or the callback. I also know several students there who say that their group of friends who are in the top 10% didn't have the same luck you mentioned.

That may or may not be true. However, even if it is, do you not see how that undermines the contention that Stetson students in the 1/3 of their class are virtually guaranteed a job? After all, UF is a T1 school and Stetson is T3. The reputations nationally and even in-state aren't close to comparable.

I'm not discounting what you say, I am more discounting the others that say that top 10% at UF guarantees you a biglaw position. Top 10% at any Florida school guarantees you nothing.

Stetson is T2 now though.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: yykm on July 18, 2007, 02:40:18 PM
"Guarantee" is an overstatement because the student still needs to sell himself in the interview.  Even if youre top 10%, you can fail an interview.  Still, biglaw is yours if youre top 10% at UF and you dont screw up the interview or do something stupid.  Coming into the interview with a sense of entitlement would fall under both categories, and I wouldnt be surprised if an UF student lost an opportunity for such a reason.

I won't comment on the opportunities for top 10% at other FL schools since I dont attend them.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on July 18, 2007, 02:40:40 PM
While I'm transferring out of UF, top 10% meets the reqts for all OCI firms, except the IP ones.  I know several top 10% students who have biglaw SA jobs as 1Ls.  If you want biglaw and are top 10% at UF, you can get biglaw.  The only reason anyone in the top 10% doesnt get biglaw is due to choice or doing something stupid.

NOTE: the biglaw I described doesnt include biglaw in the major markets - NYC, DC, LA, SF, Chicago.  Therefore, obtaining a biglaw position at one of the firm's smaller offices is available.

Firms choose you for OCI, so even if you are top 10% it doesn't mean you're going to get the interview or the callback. I also know several students there who say that their group of friends who are in the top 10% didn't have the same luck you mentioned.

That may or may not be true. However, even if it is, do you not see how that undermines the contention that Stetson students in the 1/3 of their class are virtually guaranteed a job? After all, UF is a T1 school and Stetson is T3. The reputations nationally and even in-state aren't close to comparable.

I'm not discounting what you say, I am more discounting the others that say that top 10% at UF guarantees you a biglaw position. Top 10% at any Florida school guarantees you nothing.

Stetson is T2 now though.

Agreed, though UF gives you a decent shot at local markets and secondary national markets.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: UGAfootballfanatic on July 20, 2007, 06:25:52 PM
One more observation on the UF hiring situation; you really don't have to be in the top 10% to get OCI interviews, if you're not picky and willing to bid on every single firm that comes to campus. As someone in the top 10%, I can tell you for a fact that and several of my Law review friends didn't apply to more than 20 firms. Even the lesser-known mid-law and biglaw firms won't get bids from the entire top 10 percent, which leaves more space down the list.
I'd say at UF you can get a very good job if you're in the top third and have decent interviewing/networking skills. I know a couple in the top half in this position, but they have killer networking skills on their side.
Title: Re: Not a gator troll
Post by: SWATJester on September 07, 2007, 03:29:37 PM
Which Florida school.... now there's a question.

I will preface this with my usual advice. Before picking a law school, you are best served by identifying your needs. What are you looking for in the law school you want? Once you get out of the T14, this is what you need to identify. There is no universal best answer- there is only what is best for you.

Do you need to live near a beach? Then you should go to Miami or FSU. So you want to live in a major urban area? Miami. Small city? Gainesville. In-between? FSU. Want to see politics up close? FSU. Want to practice your spanish skills and plan on doing some bilingual law? Miami. Want to lower your debt level? UF or FSU, unless there's a scholarship involved. I don't know much about Stetson, although I've heard their trial law program is very well respected.

And so on...

But let's say money is not an object, and you have no sense of self, and you just think, "Hey, I'd like to go to school in Florida!" How do you rank them?

hype thinks UF is all rerp, and on his visit, they had an attitude that you should feel blessed just to go there. Well, there's a reason for this. UF has traditionally been the crown jewel of the Florida University system, and the law school is the most prestigious one in Florida. Is it the 'best' one? Define 'best'. The argument about being too far away from a major metro area to get a job in Gainesville doesn't hold water- while it means that summer internships may require a move (as is the case with many schools), UF is much close to the growth markets of Orlando, Jacksonville, and Tampa than Miami is. But that's really a distinction without a difference.

You ask how to rank the schools. I think that the rankings in USNWR accurately depict the pecking order in the state. This is not the difference between Hah-vahd and Suffolk in the Boston area... but they're a little farther apart than BU and BC. Define what you want, then choose the school that tbest matches your desires. In my case, I only applied to UF, because I knew that it was the only school in Florida I'd be happy at. You couldn't pay me to live in Miami, and Tallahassee has always seemed like a cross between Albany and an ambien.

They are all, however, fine schools, and if you do well, you'll do okay in post-graduation employment.

Unless, of course, you're a UF graduate interviewing with an FSU graduate after the Gators just shellacked the 'Noles. Then you're on your own.

FSU near a beach? No. Shell point and apalachicola bay does not really count as a "beach".

This shouldn't even be a consideration. If you get into UF, you go to UF. It's 41 in the USNEWS rankings and it's 33 in the Leiter Top 35 rankings.

UF has one of the nation's top Tax and environmental law programs. Also, their administration is fabulous, and Dean Jerry is especially great and accessible.

Despite FSU's location in Tallahassee, there actually aren't that many opportunities available  in Tallahassee....it really is a college town.

FSU law school is certainly prettier than UF's, and if you are interested in Criminal law they are highly regarded due to their programs working with the school of criminology (one of the top in the world). (disclosure: I went to FSU undergrad).

Stetson is a backup school, like Nova.

Miami is simply a shithole. The law school is *&^%, it's not a competitive education, Miami is a bad place to live, and UM even worse of a location, and if you're interested in spanish programs, consider going to a school that offers extensive international law programs that offers a legal rhetoric in spanish course. Miami spanish ≠ rest of world spanish. FIU would be a better choice.

Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on September 18, 2007, 08:49:32 AM
    
ADVERTISEMENT

Originally published September 18, 2007
Bar exam results released
By Angeline Taylor
DEMOCRAT STAFF WRITER    Print    Email to a friend    Subscribe

Florida A&M University's College of Law came in 10th and eighth place for its percentage of students who passed the two-part bar exam, according to the Florida Board of Bar Examiners.

The board, which serves as the Florida Supreme Court's administrative arm, announced test results of students who sat for the exam in July. Sixty percent of FAMU's College of Law students passed the Florida or general portion of the test and 79.2 percent passed the multi-state/professional part.

ADVERTISEMENT
   
"We congratulate our Florida A&M University law graduates who passed the July 2007 bar exam," interim law-school dean Ruth Witherspoon said by e-mail. "The results on that exam evidenced an increase in our overall bar pass rate. While we are certainly pleased with this improvement, we realize we still have a way to go to yield the results that we are capable of achieving."

FAMU College of Law students' scores ranked in last place out of the 10 Florida law schools on the general portion of the test.

Two other schools fell below FAMU's scores on the professional portion of the test. Those schools are Barry University, with 76.9 percent, and University of Miami, with a 74.5-percent passing rate.

It is unclear what official ranking FAMU's College of Law will receive as a result of these July 2007 test scores. However, 89 percent of Florida State University's students passed the general portion of the test and 85.4 percent of FSU students passed the professional portion of the test.

According to the Florida Board of Bar Examiners, 3,216 applicants took the exam and 1,593 passed the test.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: syncmaster on September 18, 2007, 02:19:52 PM
The reality of the matter is that top 10% at any Florida school isn't going to guarantee you biglaw. I know plenty of people at UF who say that you may get OCI interviews if you are top 10% but even then the callbacks may be few and far between.

that's likely correct. however it is an absolute fact that the top 10% at florida has a better shot than the top 10% at stetson.

Absolute fact?  Let's look at the July 2007 Bar Results for first time test takers?

The results reflect the passing percentage for first-time takers:

Florida State:  89.0% (146 out of 164 passed)
Stetson:         87.6% (197 out of 225 passed)
Florida:         86.8% (178 out of 205 passed)
FIU:             85.9% (55 out of 64 passed)
Miami:  85.8% (224 out of 261 passed)
Coastal:         84.4% (141 out of 167 passed)
Nova             81.9% (176 out of 215 passed)
Barry            79.1% (68 out of 86 passed)
non-Fla.         75.4% (645 out of 855 passed)
St. Thomas      72.2% (96 out of 133 passed)
FAMU             60.0% (45 out of 75 passed)
Overall 80.4% (1971 out of 2450 passed)


We also received the overall results for the August 2007 MPRE:

FIU              95.5%
Florida 92.4%
Nova             89.0%
Stetson 87.7% (64 out of 73 passed)
Florida State   85.4%
non-Florida     84.8%
Coastal 82.9%
St. Thomas      82.2%
FAMU             79.2%
Barry            76.9%
Miami            74.5%
Overall 85.2%


Looks like FSU & Stetson graduates might be more prepared to actually get jobs then those from UF. 
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: jfields32 on September 18, 2007, 02:27:02 PM
Is Miami really that of a place to live??
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on September 18, 2007, 05:24:37 PM
Is Miami really that of a place to live??

huh?
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: sinkfloridasink on October 21, 2007, 10:20:53 PM
The reality of the matter is that top 10% at any Florida school isn't going to guarantee you biglaw. I know plenty of people at UF who say that you may get OCI interviews if you are top 10% but even then the callbacks may be few and far between.

that's likely correct. however it is an absolute fact that the top 10% at florida has a better shot than the top 10% at stetson.

Absolute fact?  Let's look at the July 2007 Bar Results for first time test takers?

The results reflect the passing percentage for first-time takers:

Florida State:  89.0% (146 out of 164 passed)
Stetson:         87.6% (197 out of 225 passed)
Florida:         86.8% (178 out of 205 passed)
FIU:             85.9% (55 out of 64 passed)
Miami:  85.8% (224 out of 261 passed)
Coastal:         84.4% (141 out of 167 passed)
Nova             81.9% (176 out of 215 passed)
Barry            79.1% (68 out of 86 passed)
non-Fla.         75.4% (645 out of 855 passed)
St. Thomas      72.2% (96 out of 133 passed)
FAMU             60.0% (45 out of 75 passed)
Overall 80.4% (1971 out of 2450 passed)


We also received the overall results for the August 2007 MPRE:

FIU              95.5%
Florida 92.4%
Nova             89.0%
Stetson 87.7% (64 out of 73 passed)
Florida State   85.4%
non-Florida     84.8%
Coastal 82.9%
St. Thomas      82.2%
FAMU             79.2%
Barry            76.9%
Miami            74.5%
Overall 85.2%


Looks like FSU & Stetson graduates might be more prepared to actually get jobs then those from UF. 

Merely posting bar passage stats might be one of the worst ways to counter an argument that the top 10% at UF is better off than Stetson.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: XxGodJrxX on October 22, 2007, 12:20:44 AM
Is Miami really that of a place to live??

No.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: SWATJester on October 22, 2007, 10:04:05 PM
The reality of the matter is that top 10% at any Florida school isn't going to guarantee you biglaw. I know plenty of people at UF who say that you may get OCI interviews if you are top 10% but even then the callbacks may be few and far between.

that's likely correct. however it is an absolute fact that the top 10% at florida has a better shot than the top 10% at stetson.

Absolute fact?  Let's look at the July 2007 Bar Results for first time test takers?

The results reflect the passing percentage for first-time takers:

Florida State:  89.0% (146 out of 164 passed)
Stetson:         87.6% (197 out of 225 passed)
Florida:         86.8% (178 out of 205 passed)
FIU:             85.9% (55 out of 64 passed)
Miami:  85.8% (224 out of 261 passed)
Coastal:         84.4% (141 out of 167 passed)
Nova             81.9% (176 out of 215 passed)
Barry            79.1% (68 out of 86 passed)
non-Fla.         75.4% (645 out of 855 passed)
St. Thomas      72.2% (96 out of 133 passed)
FAMU             60.0% (45 out of 75 passed)
Overall 80.4% (1971 out of 2450 passed)


We also received the overall results for the August 2007 MPRE:

FIU              95.5%
Florida 92.4%
Nova             89.0%
Stetson 87.7% (64 out of 73 passed)
Florida State   85.4%
non-Florida     84.8%
Coastal 82.9%
St. Thomas      82.2%
FAMU             79.2%
Barry            76.9%
Miami            74.5%
Overall 85.2%


Looks like FSU & Stetson graduates might be more prepared to actually get jobs then those from UF. 

Merely posting bar passage stats might be one of the worst ways to counter an argument that the top 10% at UF is better off than Stetson.

Absolutely correct. Show me 5 Stetson grads in biglaw. Not saying biglaw is everything, but it's a good bar to set.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on October 23, 2007, 04:10:46 AM
im sure if you looked at the H&K tampa office youd find em.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: LittleRussianPrincess, Esq. on October 23, 2007, 05:30:13 AM
im sure if you looked at the H&K tampa office youd find em.
it is a HUGE deal for any Stetson grad to get hired by Tampa BIGLAW, especially HK.
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: ->Soon on October 23, 2007, 05:40:41 AM
im sure if you looked at the H&K tampa office youd find em.
it is a HUGE deal for any Stetson grad to get hired by Tampa BIGLAW, especially HK.

yes, but he said find 5

i found 4, and i was only looking at the chicks.

and arent you supposed to be in england now?
Title: Re: Which florida school?
Post by: sinkfloridasink on October 23, 2007, 08:05:19 AM
By my count it's UF-25, Stetson-11 at HK in Tampa. That's a significant margin, especially since it's in Stetson's home market. I'm not trying to bash Stetson - it's a great local law school and has a great rep within the state - but it's a little ridiculous to try and compare the top 10% at UF with that of Stetson.

What really surprised me was the lack of FSU grads at HK. Admittedly it's a small sample size (just one firm in one city), but it's a large and respected firm in one of Florida's largest cities, and FSU probably had less than 5 grads there.