Law School Discussion

Nine Years of Discussion
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 61 
 on: May 05, 2013, 02:48:11 AM 
Started by amyis - Last post by Duncanjp
Let me again ask "CA Law Dean" to present employment statistics for his/ her schools recent graduating classes 2010, 2011 & 2013 similar to what the ABA requires its members to present.
http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Please also provide bar pass stats for your school and the bar pass stats for other CAB schools.

The tenor of your posts sounds suspiciously like you would seek to discredit Monterey COL, its dean, and CBE schools in general if given the chance. Or at least to needlessly assert the superiority of an ABA education over the pedestrian variety of a CBE school. Correct me if I'm wrong. But that's how your posts read.

I attend a CBE school - Lincoln Law School of Sacramento. Our pass rate on the last bar exam was something over 50%, but less than 60%. I don't recall the exact number and I'm not inclined to look it up. Pass rates are posted on the State Bar's website if you want to see them. Nobody claims that CBE grads pass the bar in the same percentages that ABA grads do, or that they have any hope of even coming close. But CBE schools cannot be compared with ABA schools in many ways because unlike ABA schools, CBE schools are not populated with droves of 20-somethings with no professional experience and nothing to do but study the law. CBE schools are primarily attended by working adults, who juggle careers, families, mortgages and night school all at the same time. Landing a job in BigLaw is not on a CBE grad's bucket list. My classmates and I are already gainfully employed in career positions, primarily in law or closely-related fields. A significant number of my classmates work in government - that's Sacramento for you. But the point is that CBE grads do not typically get their degrees and then commence a desperate hunt for lucrative work in the impacted field of law. ABA grads have got that covered well enough without our help. A CBE education is more often a tool to further existing careers. I doubt that most CBE schools keep meaningful records of how many grads are working in law nine months after graduating, although I could be wrong on that point. They definitely keep tabs on who passed the bar. But such records aren’t mission critical the way they are with ABA schools, regardless. ABA schools are flooding the country with well-educated, but inexperienced, highly-indebted young people competing for a handful of jobs, many or most of which pay only moderate salaries under the best of circumstances. The employment stats for CBE graduates actually look pretty good, at least to the end that most of us already work in the legal field and we don't seem to have the same problem on average of having to scramble to find employment after graduating.

Furthermore, the affordability of CBE schools means that even those grads who have assumed some debt by the time they finish are not laden with the chains of Jacob Marley. What you probably want to hear is whether any significant percentage of CBE grads are working in BigLaw nine months after graduation. The answer is no. BigLaw is the province of top ABA schools. But it's a hell of a big country, and legal services are needed everywhere. Of all the legal services provided in this country, what percentage is handled by traditional, BigLaw firms? That's mostly rhetorical. I don't know the answer. But I would risk two bucks the percentage provided by small and medium law firms is significant, and those firms hire a lot of CBE grads. Such firms frequently have partners who went to CBE schools.

Passing the California bar definitely presents a greater challenge for CBE grads on average than ABA grads. This is not because they're dumb or less academically capable than the average ABA grad. Those who struggle academically get weeded out in the first year, and pretty mercilessly. Those CBE students who go the distance, however, tend to be exceptionally driven, focused people. Unfortunately, not everyone who completes a CBE program is able to abandon his or her job (and income) for two or three months to immerse themselves in preparing for the bar. ABA grads generally have the good fortune to have nothing going on their lives but law school and bar prep, which is by design. And good for them. My mission isn't to worry about how lucky ABA students are, but to focus on my own task. Having watched my classmates progress over the last three years, I'm confident that the average CBE student who makes it through the entire program could handle the typical ABA student's life and educational program with one hand. I mean, if you can pass law exams while working full time, you can certainly pass law exams when you don’t. CBE schools do not dumb down their courses. Contracts is contracts. Con law is con law. Most of my profs went to ABA schools themselves. Some of the finest professors I have ever studied under have been my instructors at my humble CBE school. It isn’t the quality of the education that truly distinguishes ABA schools from CBE, nor even bar passing rates: it’s the station in life of the average student.

 62 
 on: May 04, 2013, 12:27:34 PM 
Started by vanceap3 - Last post by passaroa25
I am glad it worked for you.  It is a lot of material to read.

 63 
 on: May 04, 2013, 07:23:17 AM 
Started by SmilingFish - Last post by Aries86
i do not understand this thread.



______________________
Aries86

 64 
 on: May 04, 2013, 03:32:45 AM 
Started by amyis - Last post by bobol

Let me again ask "CA Law Dean" to present employment statistics for his/ her schools recent graduating classes 2010, 2011 & 2013 similar to what the ABA requires its members to present.
http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Please also provide bar pass stats for your school and the bar pass stats for other CAB schools.

Thanks.

 65 
 on: May 03, 2013, 07:01:13 PM 
Started by jonlevy - Last post by Maintain FL 350
The world does not laugh at the US law school system, they flock to it in droves.

The US has more foreign law students than any other nation on Earth by far. Ask any lawyer in Hong Kong, Berlin, or Johannesburg to name the ten best law schools and the world and I'll bet they'll answer "Harvard, Yale, Columbia...", etc. The international competition to get into top US LL.M programs is intense.

US law schools definitely have problems with cost, lack of practical training, etc. But by and large, US graduate level education is considered to be very high quality internationally.   

 66 
 on: May 03, 2013, 06:45:24 PM 
Started by Maintain FL 350 - Last post by Maintain FL 350
Cher1300:

If you do transfer to a CBE law school I hope you keep us updated with your observations. You'd have a unique perspective, and it would be interesting to hear how you compare the ABA/CBE programs.

For many jobs, I really wonder if a lower tier ABA degree is worth very much more than a CBE degree. If your interest is solo practice or small Main Street firms, saving money and gaining practical experience may be the best bet.

Good luck with whatever path you choose!

 67 
 on: May 03, 2013, 02:22:48 PM 
Started by lawyurd - Last post by FZacharyJ
I couldn't agree more. Thats why the app is so great. When you purchase it, they send you a welcome packet and everything on the app is available to print. They also have all of their lessons and homeworks in organized binders. Its really beneficial considering the fact that all of their practice exams are the actual previous LSATs.

 68 
 on: May 03, 2013, 03:24:35 AM 
Started by CA Law Dean - Last post by livinglegend
Having an individual state bar exam is a great money maker for each state. I think that is the real reason for the system clearly the MBE is basically a national bar exam, but I think big states i.e. Califronia really enjoy the revenue of a $500 moral character application and an $838 bar exam fee from 10,000 or so students every year. Not to mention the annual $410 bar member fee they receieve where would all that money go if there was a national bar exam? :)

 69 
 on: May 03, 2013, 02:25:51 AM 
Started by malikp - Last post by livinglegend
UC Davis is a fine school, but it should be noted Davis is not exactly a "fun" or "beautiful" town it is way up in Northern California Sacramento is close, but still it is pretty "white" and "small town" so it may be tough if you are from more urban environment.

As for how "good" the school is I am sure Davis is good, but every ABA school will offer you a quality education and if your an international student the real reason to take the LLM from my understanding is to be able to take the bar exam. As for international recognition I don't think Davis offers that most people in California don't know where Davis is although the school is fine remember U.S. News is nothing more than a for-profit unregulated magazine do not make a life altering decision based on it.

 70 
 on: May 03, 2013, 02:21:41 AM 
Started by amyis - Last post by livinglegend
He is the dean of Monterrey College of Law my two cents as a Bay Area attorney is that employment "stats" are highly inaccurate and do not reflect the reality that no matter what school you attend if you pass the bar and use common sense and have a modicum of social skills you can have a career as an attorney at least in California. It difficult to start out and I think without getting into costs, location, etc even CA Law Dean would agree having an ABA degree would be better than a CBE one, but CBE schools are great for certain people.

Overall are CBE schools a joke? They can be if your trying to get hired at Cravath or Latham, but so is a degree from a the 47th ranked ABA school. There will also be people out there who think CBE schools are a joke and plenty that don't. I have interviewed and hired CBE students for internships etc some were good some were not the same can be said for students at every law school I have dealt with in the Bay area GGU, Hastings, USF, etc. Whether a person is a good attorney has a lot more to do with the individual than the school they attended.

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