Law School Discussion

I just want to make sure I would be able to sit the bar after three years, especially since a scholarship is involved.

Most states require a degree from an ABA approved law school in order to sit for the bar.

Check out the ABA website, you can read about the process and requirements involved with obtaining accreditation. Obtaining full approval is a long and expensive process, with many intermediate steps.

IIRC, a law school must operate for one academic year before they can apply for accreditation. The school can then apply for Provisional Accreditation, which means that the school is found to be in "substantial compliance" with ABA standards. The school must then maintain provisional accreditation for a while (three years?) before it can apply for full accreditation. The ABA looks at everything from financial resources to faculty qualifications to admissions processes. It's a very in depth process.

Here in California, the new UC-Irvine law school opened in 2009 with Erwin Chemerinsky (a huge name in Constitutional law) as dean, a $20 million gift from a local tycoon, and the full backing of the highly regarded UC system. Even so, they operated as unaccredited for the first year and then acheived provisional status. I believe they are still in the process of obtaining full approval. That's an example of the best case scenario.

Lincoln Memorial University in Tennessee, OTOH, opened a new law school and failed to obtain provisional approval recently. There is a good NY Times article on the topic which I'd encourage you to read. It explains how a school can fail to obtain accreditation. Look closely at the resources of the parent institution.

Thus, it is likely that in the best case scenario you would graduate from a provisionally accredited school. The ABA says that graduates of provisionally accredited schools should be accorded all the rights of graduates of fully approved schools. I have heard of some states giving applicants a hard time about provisional status, however.

Make sure to check with the state bar in the state in which you intend to practice, and get a clear answer as to their policy regarding provisionally accredited law schools. Also be sure to check out the ABA's rules, and ask the new school specific questions about their plans to acheive accreditation.   

I don't think there's really enough information to help answer your question.

If you are talking about a new school in the University of California System or something, then it might be a great option.  If you are talking about a new school in the Thomas J. Cooley network, it might not be a great option.

I personally don't believe Law school adds much value, at least beyond the first year, independent of the degree.
If your goal is to be a licensed attorney, you should really start calling the state bar associations where you will likely apply.  If your goal is to use the law degree for a non-law purpose, I must respectfully dissuade you. 

That said, if it's basically free, the risk is low.

I have a new law school that is opening this year close to where I live and I am wondering is there a waiver for students sitting the bar who attend, as the school is new and hasn't received accredidation yet.  My main concern is would it be worth the 3 years.  The school is a branch of an already accredited school but each branch has to apply seperately.  I just want to make sure I would be able to sit the bar after three years, especially since a scholarship is involved.   Any advice.

Taft like Concord is a good way to achieve if your ambition is to become a lawyer.  I'm at Concord, and in June I will be halfway through my third year. It's a lot of work, especially if you have a full time job.  Loving this year because I passed the baby bar in October.  I took the baby bar twice and barely passed the second time, but studying for that test while doing second year classes and working was incredibly hard - no vacation last year - but went to a Raider game before the October test to just clear my mind.  This year was a shocker, 6 classes to start and now that I passed my elective, dropping to 5 classes is a little easier. I am looking forward to only 4 classes in July as our legal research final is in June.  My progress was slow at first but now I'm maintaining an agressive schedule of studying every chance I can.  I still love the law, evidence is a great class this year, professional responsibility has a great instructor.  Legal analysis is hard and my corporations class - EASY EASY - since I work in the corporate group at a law firm (LARGE law firm).  I have no regrets leaving it in two years to practice in CALI;)  Will be close to family, this goal, although not completed, was well worth the work!

Barbri, Kaplan, Themis and Cal Bar Review all set up booths at my CBE school regularly.

I applaud the movement to require CBE schools to meet minimum bar pass rates or risk losing their accreditation. There is something wrong with accredited schools that base their fees (and advertising) on being accredited if they do not produce graduates who have a fighting chance at passing the bar. That would go for any ABA school as well. If all you want is to learn the law for its own sake and you have no interest in sitting the bar, then an unaccredited institution is the place to be - with fees relative to that purpose. But accreditation needs to encompass certain minimum standards, and for law schools, the most important measure of their effectiveness is the bar pass rate.

That said, many factors influence pass rates: position in life, academic capacity of the student, quality of the education, availability of resources, quality of bar prep, etc. I'm glad that CA at least offers those who didn't get a 3.9 at Stanford a shot at becoming a lawyer, if they have the other intangibles in place. 

John,
May I suggest some structure in your writing?
How can somebody read such along paragraph and make any sense out of it?

Yes I have experience with Taft Law School formerly Witkin School of Law at Taft University.  As you know, the ABA does not accredit any online law school, but in the state of California where Taft Law School is located, if one passes the "Baby Bar" after

John

Let me again ask "CA Law Dean" to present employment statistics for his/ her schools recent graduating classes 2010, 2011 & 2013 similar to what the ABA requires its members to present.
http://employmentsummary.abaquestionnaire.org/

Please also provide bar pass stats for your school and the bar pass stats for other CAB schools.

Thanks.

Monterrey's first time pass rate for July 2012 was 66%. That's better than several CA ABA schools, and significantly better than most out of state ABA schools. Check out Calbar's site for details.

I don't think CBE schools are required to report post-grad employment details like their ABA counterparts, so that info may not be readily available. You could have discovered this yourself in about 30 seconds.

"Are CBE schools a joke?" is the wrong question. It's subjective and vague, and can't really be answered. The question to ask is "Are CBE schools adequately fulfilling their intended function?" The answer to that question is that some are, and some are not. 

CBE schools are not attempting to compete with the ABA schools. As Duncanjp noted, the typical CBE student is a working adult and has no intention of seeking a Biglaw position. The CBE schools do, however, provide a large number of California's prosecutors, public defenders, small Main Street firms, and solo practitioners.

I think it's difficult for attorneys from outside of California to understand the system, because most states have no equivalent. Law students, both inside and outside of California, seem equally confused. I graduated from an ABA school, and the entire focus was on grades, law review, and absurd ranking schemes. Everyone was gunning for those coveted few Biglaw or Federal positions, and most of my classmates openly disdained the notion of working in small firms or at the public defender's office.

From what I can gather, that's simply not the focus at CBE schools. Most CBE students I've met are very realistic about their options, and understand the limitations of the degree. However, visit any public agency or small firm in CA and you're bound to meet successful CBE grads. My county counsel's office is something like 50% CBE grads, and they're doing just fine.

Also, like ABA schools, some CBEs have better reputations than others. Some of them are geographically isolated, and are therefore able to attract more qualified applicants who would otherwise attend an ABA school. Those particular CBE schools produce a large percentage of the local bar and bench, and have good local reputations.

For example, we had a CBE school here in Los Angeles (University of La Verne) that was called "The Judge's Law School" for decades because it produced so many judges in southern California. Within it's region, ULV had (and still has) a good reputation and went onto earn ABA approval. Western State in Orange County had a similar history, and produced a huge number of OC's prosecutors and judges before gaining ABA approval. In the Central Valley, a large number of the attorneys and judges are graduates of San Joaquin COL, and the Santa Barbara area is well stocked with Santa Barbara COL grads.

Other CBE schools, however, have low bar pass rates,mmay be in danger of losing state accreditation under California's newly adopted rules, and are in regions where they have to compete with multiple ABA schools. Clearly, that's going to make things difficult for many of those grads. The point is you've got to look at the schools individually, and take into account the students' goals. 

There are several things to consider when choosing a law school and it is a life altering decision, but one thign to really understand is that every ABA school will provide you with roughly the same education and job prospects. There are a few that will truly open doors i.e. Harvard, Yale, Stanford, but other than that it is much more up to the individual what they do with the degree with that said I think any 0L shoudl consider the following factors when choosing a law school. (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feelings about the school (4) Understand the reality of legal education and a distant (5) U.S. News.

1) Location
As shoreman mentioned if you want to live in Boston go to law school in Boston at a minimum you will be in the city you attend law school for three years and realistcally you will get an apartment, friends, internships, likely a romantic relationship, and take the state bar of the state you attend law school in.

Also what kind of person are you would you prefer living in a big city like Boston during law school can you handle the distraction, will you enjoy it, etc. Or will a smaller town be more your style only you know the answer to that, but really consider the location.

2) Cost & Scholarship Conditions

Tuition

Suffolk 41k per year
Northwestern 49k per year
Seton Hall 45k per year

I noticed the 30k scholarship at Seton Hall, but what are the CONDITIONS? Typically it will say something along the lines of maintaining a 3.0 GPA. As a 0L this sounds like a piece of cake, but typically schools require you to be in the top 35% of the class you have a 3.0 GPA that is the "curve" you will hear so much about. The reality is everyone at an ABA school is smart, hard working, and motivated and 100% of them are sure they will be in the top 35%, but 65% won't be, which means there is a 65% chance you will lose your scholarship for years 2 & 3.

Every schools conditions differ, but ASK what they are and negotiate for better terms this NY times article does a better job explaining the scholarship conditions than I can http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

3) Personal Feeling About the School
When I was a OL I visited many schools and as a law student I participated in mock trial competitions. I can tell you some schools I liked others I hated, but that was my opinion. It is very possible you will like what I hated and love what I hated. To determine YOUR personal feelings I highly encourage you to visit both campuses, interact with students, talk to professors, admins, etc. You will get a gut feeling about each and maybe you will like both schools equally, but you may also hate one and love the other, but really listen to that gut feeling where you attend law school is three years of YOUR life, $100,000 of YOUR money, and YOUR legal career and don't let a magazine or anonymous internet poster overrule your gut feeling.

4) Reality of Legal Education
The realty is what you learn at an ABA school is pretty much identical. Your first year will consist of torts, civil procedure, property, contracts, and criminal law. In these courses you will read Supreme Court cases and they do write separate opinions for different schools. You will read Palsgraff in Torts for proximate cause, Pennoyer v. Neff in civ pro to learn about notice etc .

You might have a few electives here and there, but the majority of your legal education will be identical no matter where you go. As for your IP courses I know in the Bay Area where IP is everything schools over a few IP courses, but realistically you can only take 4-5 specialized law school courses based on availability, scheduling, etc.

On top of that you can't really know what you want to do until you start law school. I honestly though IP was what I wanted when I started, but after the one course I dropped it and really liked trial advocacy, which all schools offer.

Bottom line is at any ABA school you will learn the same thing.

5) U.S. News Ranking
You are making the common mistake that many 0L's myself included make by basing a life altering decision on a magazine. It is very important to realize that U.S. News is a for-profit, unregulated, magazine offering an opinion. Furthermore, their opinion changes from year to year

As you can see from 2009 until 2013 Kansas has gone from 65 to 86th and if you had been a 1L in 2009 you would have been attending the 65th best school, but somehow by the time you graduated in 2012 it became the 86th best. There is no rhyme or reason for this and review this chart to see how drastically schools change from year to year http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html . You can see Depaul is 80th then in the 90s, then back to 80's and this year in the 100's nothing has changed there over the last few years.

To further illustrate this point U.S. News ranks more than law schools New Mexico is the best place to live http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009 . Are you going to move there because U.S. News says so? I imagine not surely there is something good about New Mexico, but I would not alter my life because U.S. News says New Mexico is a great place to live. Similarly I would recommend not making the life altering decision on where to attend law school based on this magazine.

You can certainly use it as a tiebreaker and if you were debating Harvard or St. Louis then it might be a different story, but truly nobody cares about the ranking difference between the 65th or 80th best school especially since it is very possibly St. Louis could be ranked higher than Kansas by the time you graduate.

Conclusion:
I cannot possibly tell you what is best and neither can anyone else on this board. However, your main question is the difference in rank worth it I really do not think so. Really consider the location, cost, and your personal feelings about each school. It will be a life altering decision and some magazine writers in Pennsylvania should not be the basis of it.

Congrats on getting into law school and good luck in your legal career.

First off please realize advice from anonymous internet posters on boards such as this mine included should be taken with a major grain of salt.

With that said I have gone through law school and can tell you some very important things to consider when choosing a law school and one of the LEAST important considerations is what "U.S. News" a for profit-unregulated magazine thinks.

In my opinion these are the factors any 0L should consider in this order. (1) Location (2) Cost (3) Personal Feeling about the school (4) Understanding the reality of legal education (5) Last AND Least U.S. News Ranking. I will analyze why this factors are important below.

1) Location:
This is far and away the most important factor when choosing a law school. Whether you attend law school in Lawrence Kansas or St. Louis, Missouri will change your life. You will spend a minimum of three years in either of these places and make friends, get an apartment, find restaurants, likely enter into a romantic relationship, etc. On top of that if you go to law school in Kasnas you will likely take the Kansas bar if you go to school in Missouri you will take the Missouri Bar so your career will be in that state. On top of that if you attend law school in Kansas 9 months of the year you will be located in Kansas and only able to do internships in Kansas so all your legal connections will be in Kansas.

I have never been to either Lawrence or St. Louis, but I am guessing Kansas is much more of a college town and St. Louis is a bigger city, which will make for a different experience over three years. Just really understand the importance of location in this decision you may also want to consider any personal connections you have if your from Kansas leaving your friends, family, etc during law school will be tough.

I also emphasize that while law school is difficult you will still have free-time so live in a location that suits you.

2. Cost & Scholarship Offers
Next thing to consider is cost whatever school you attend you will leave and whether you attended Harvard or Cooley the creditors will want their money make this number as small as possible. With that there are two factors to consider in your decision.

A) Scholarship conditions
I noticed you stated you had "similar" scholarships at both schools, but pay attention to the CONDITIONS of the scholarship. Typically it will say something along the lines of maintaining a 3.0 GPA. As a 0L this sounds like a piece of cake, but typically schools require you to be in the top 35% of the class you have a 3.0 GPA that is the "curve" you will hear so much about. The reality is everyone at an ABA school is smart, hard working, and motivated and 100% of them are sure they will be in the top 35%, but 65% won't be, which means there is a 65% chance you will lose your scholarship for years 2 & 3.

Every schools conditions differ, but ASK what they are and negotiate for better terms this NY times article does a better job explaining the scholarship conditions than I can http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/01/business/law-school-grants.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

B) Tuition differences between KU & STL
I noticed that Kansas offers in-state tutiion of 15k per year. I don't know if you have residency or can obtain it, but this will be significant savings with or without the scholarship over STL, which charges 35k per year.  That is a savings of 60k over three years in tuition so if you can obtain in-state tuition and you don't mind living in Kansas that may be the better option.

3) Personal Feeling About the School
When I was a OL I visited many schools and as a law student I participated in mock trial competitions. I can tell you some schools I liked others I hated, but that was my opinion. It is very possible you will like what I hated and love what I hated. To determine YOUR personal feelings I highly encourage you to visit both campuses, interact with students, talk to professors, admins, etc. You will get a gut feeling about each and maybe you will like both schools equally, but you may also hate one and love the other, but really listen to that gut feeling where you attend law school is three years of YOUR life, $100,000 of YOUR money, and YOUR legal career and don't let a magazine or anonymous internet poster overrule your gut feeling.

4) Reality of Legal Education
The realty is what you learn at an ABA school is pretty much identical. Your first year will consist of torts, civil procedure, property, contracts, and criminal law. In these courses you will read Supreme Court cases and they do write separate opinions for different schools. You will read Palsgraff in Torts for proximate cause, Pennoyer v. Neff in civ pro to learn about notice etc .

You might have a few electives here and there, but the majority of your legal education will be identical no matter where you go. As for your IP courses I know in the Bay Area where IP is everything schools over a few IP courses, but realistically you can only take 4-5 specialized law school courses based on availability, scheduling, etc.

On top of that you can't really know what you want to do until you start law school. I honestly though IP was what I wanted when I started, but after the one course I dropped it and really liked trial advocacy, which all schools offer.

Bottom line is at any ABA school you will learn the same thing.

5) U.S. News Ranking
You are making the common mistake that many 0L's myself included make by basing a life altering decision on a magazine. It is very important to realize that U.S. News is a for-profit, unregulated, magazine offering an opinion. Furthermore, their opinion changes from year to year

As you can see from 2009 until 2013 Kansas has gone from 65 to 86th and if you had been a 1L in 2009 you would have been attending the 65th best school, but somehow by the time you graduated in 2012 it became the 86th best. There is no rhyme or reason for this and review this chart to see how drastically schools change from year to year http://www.top-law-schools.com/rankings.html . You can see Depaul is 80th then in the 90s, then back to 80's and this year in the 100's nothing has changed there over the last few years.

To further illustrate this point U.S. News ranks more than law schools New Mexico is the best place to live http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/real-estate/articles/2009/06/08/best-places-to-live-2009 . Are you going to move there because U.S. News says so? I imagine not surely there is something good about New Mexico, but I would not alter my life because U.S. News says New Mexico is a great place to live. Similarly I would recommend not making the life altering decision on where to attend law school based on this magazine.

You can certainly use it as a tiebreaker and if you were debating Harvard or St. Louis then it might be a different story, but truly nobody cares about the ranking difference between the 65th or 80th best school especially since it is very possibly St. Louis could be ranked higher than Kansas by the time you graduate.

Conclusion:
I cannot possibly tell you what is best and neither can anyone else on this board. However, your main question is the difference in rank worth it I really do not think so. Really consider the location, cost, and your personal feelings about each school. It will be a life altering decision and some magazine writers in Pennsylvania should not be the basis of it.

Congrats on getting into law school and good luck in your legal career.