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Messages - avvocato

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so im from NYC..i love it here..finishing up UG in it there too...

assuming i get into both pitt and temple (which i think i have a good shot at doing) which city do you think is better?  i'm not a crazy partier but i do like to go out a doesnt have to be NYC crazy but , i do perfer something and reading this thread is kinda scaring me out of wanting to go to pitt...

Hi Suzieq... here's my .02 from another thread regarding your question....,41971.msg815399.html#msg815399

Love the outdated information. Hope you pay attention in your legal writing class...

The worst city for singles these days is Tampa. Read more here

LOL who cares what the worst city for singles is? That was not the point of my posting the article ...the info in the article still applies.  What does Pittsburgh not being the worst for singles anymore have to do with this?: 

Pittsburgh was the only metro area in our survey to see its total population fall between 1990 and 2000

My larger point still stands you joke...haha

I'm fried out from finals. Shoot me. But I'm not afraid to admit when I'm wrong. I jumped the gun, and that article IS the more recent one.... But it is correct that Pittsburgh isn't at the bottom of the list for singles anymore.

Anyways, I pointed out the singles issue because it is from there that the rest of the article branches out on there being a lot of old people in the area and why there isn't a raging nightlife (I these are some of the explanations for why you think the city is no good..?). But frankly, I'm tired of people using the Forbes article as a basis or proof for why they say Pittsburgh "sucks". Additionally, they are also quoting a CMU student's take of the nightlife, and you can ask ANYONE @ CMU (or even just throughout Pittsburgh) and they will tell you that CMU has definitely been hit by Invasion of the Nerds.

As for the population falling, that's based on the statistics of there being more old people dying off and not as many young people being in the city. But there are other upsides to being in the area. But there are plenty of undergrad/grad students all over Oakland, Shadyside, and Squirrel Hill, while a lot of the older folks live farther away from those areas and the campus.

Also, as the OP pointed out, the difference in real estate is quite notable.... you can get an $800K LA/NY condo or house for well under 1/3 the cost in Pittsburgh. Rents are also a lot lower in the city when compared to larger cities, and this is important to keep in mind when mapping out your costs for law school....(and maybe even afterwards when you are juggling student loan payments and other living expenses).

The bottom line is that Pittsburgh seems like a practical place for law students to be. You're not out in the middle of nowhere as if you went to Washington and Lee, but you're not dropped off in a hectic city where you have to constantly watch your back and pinch pennies to spend $1000+ on a studio apartment. There are a lot less distractions that you have to deal with, and believe me, these are factors that deserve some consideration as people narrow down their decisions.

look pittsburgh sucks!  The OP asked for comments on the city and he got mine.  Stress on the steel mill comments all you guys like if that makes it easier to avoid the bigger guys are welcome to your opinions as well.


Pittsburgh may be the best place in the world to watch a football game, but it's the worst place in America to be stuck with a lonely heart.

The Steel City is unforgiving to the unattached, coming near the bottom of all of the criteria we used to rank the best cities for singles. Pittsburgh was 33rd out of the 40 metro areas we examined in our singles ratio (see "Best Cities For Singles"). This should not be surprising when you consider that Allegheny county, where Pittsburgh is located, has the oldest population of any county in the U.S. outside Palm Beach County in Florida. Almost 18% of Allegheny's population is over 65, compared to 23.2% of Palm Beach.

Love the outdated information. Hope you pay attention in your legal writing class...

The worst city for singles these days is Tampa. Read more here There are also five other cities worse than Pittsburgh, according to the latest Forbes list.

As a big-city person living in Pittsburgh, I find that most people who are always whining about how much the city sucks were really just lame-@sses in larger cities, but they want to sound like big shots when they come back to a smaller place. Just an observation...

As I've said before, if ya don't like the place, move. But so far, my law school experience in the city has been great. And you really can't lose because if you decide to stay, being at Pitt puts you in a great position in the local legal job market. And if grads don't want to stay, they still have enough mobility to move on to other cities after going to Pitt. Sure, the city isn't party extravaganza all day, every day - but I don't know how much I can emphasize the point that you're going to LAW SCHOOL, not PARTY CENTRAL SCHOOL.

Didn't you say you lived "just outside" the city of Pittsburgh?? There probably isn't really much there, esp. when you are using NYC as your measuring's no surpise you have a jaded opinion of the city.

BP, we see your point, but it's very one-sided. It's like saying Cornell and USC are bad places to be because the school are located in dumpy areas. There's much more to NYC and LA than a less than the less-than-spectacular areas that might be nearby. Sure, Pittsburgh is a smaller city than those two, and doesn't have the full-buzz of a major metropolis, but that doesn't mean that it's a totally bad place to go to school. So I'll play up the other side with some other pics for everyone....

Besides, no one who goes to law school in Pittsburgh is going to be spending much time being near an old steel mill (unless they are perhaps local to the area and commuting in from another city). If anything, they'll be partying it up in the law library. There's still enough to do in the area so that life doesn't get too maddening... and as I've said earlier, if a law school grad doesn't love the 'Burgh they can move on to another city after they are done.....

Anyways, if anyone else wants to learn more about the neighborhoods around the city (you know, something beyond the steel mill factoid that _BP_ has enlightened us with), check this link w/ info from the school:

Here are some other pictures of the city....

The Cathedral of Learning- the second tallest academic building in the world. Great place for class, and lots of cultural events. Read more about it here: and here:
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If you're into sports, here's a shot of PNC Park:
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Here's downtown Pittsburgh @ night:
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If you want something like L.A. and NYC, you are NOT going to like Pittsburgh. It's a clean and enjoyable city, but it is not a hipster destination. There is a Saks Fifth Avenue and some good restaurants though. As for the joint degree, I have a friend that did the Pitt/CM joint degree and works for CAA in L.A. You should really visit before making any decisions.

Well a lot of cities suck when you compare them to LA and NYC...Tuscon bites when you compare it to LA, and Baltimore doesn't seem so great when you could be in NYC....

The city of Pittsburgh is not really one of America's hot spots, but that doesn't mean it's hell on earth either. But hey, you're going to law school to study, right? If someone wants to be in a city with a lot going on 24-7, I'd suggest that they move to that city and work & party for a little while, and get some of that out of their system. Then go to law school, and if they want to keep partying afterwards, after they can move to another big city graduate. No one said you have to stay in Pittsburgh forever.....

Sure we all want to have fun and be in a city with a lot going on, but keep in mind that you're probably going to be so busy in law school that you won't really have time go out all the time. It would seem adventageous to be in a place where you don't have a lot of distractions, rent is really cheap, and you can still go to a good law school. (And you can't go wrong with the oint MBA program @ CMU!!)

Just my .02....

Law School Admissions / Re: to apply or not to apply--HELP
« on: December 16, 2005, 09:46:41 AM »
ok, maybe no one wants to put that much thought into it.  How about New England School of Law versus Suffolk or Duquese versus U of Pitt (how is thier MBA program?)

The MBA program is strong. Pitt Law students can also apply for a joint MBA through Carnegie Mellon, which is an even better program.

Check this link for more info:

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Pitt Visit
« on: December 16, 2005, 09:37:55 AM »
Such a helpful thread!  Thanks esp. avvocato!

You're welcome!

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Pitt Visit
« on: November 07, 2005, 08:53:14 AM »
Temple GPA and LSAT averages are higher too.  I think its harder to get in.

Anyone have any idea about my chances of getting into PITT.  156 Lsat and 3.16 GPA. As for the intangibles - I went to a pretty good undergraduate school and have 4 years of work experience. 

I think the four years of work experience definitely moves you much closer towards the 'non-traditional' category, and that kind of experience will work in your favor. I wouldn't worry too much about your numbers... you should have a good shot at Pitt.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Pitt Visit
« on: November 02, 2005, 08:51:40 AM »
I was wondering if any one would be able to compare Pitt and Temple?  How does Pitt place in Philly compared to Temple?

I wondered the same thing last year when I was working on apps, and I actually applied to both schools. I'm at Pitt now (so this might be favorably biased, but Temple still rocks!), so I have shed some light on what I know about the each. The obvious info is that Pitt is ranked higher than Temple...but rankings aren't everything so you have evaluate the schools beyond the numbers. Some other info:

Tuition - Both have resident/ non-resident rates, but it will cost you more in tuition to go to Pitt than @ Temple. However...

Living expenses - It is cheaper to live in Pittsburgh than Philly, so in the end, you almost end up paying the same total for housing + tuition at either school. I don't know what the average rental rates are in Philly, but in Pittsburgh law students can easily get GREAT 1BDs for $550-$750 range. Transportation is also included in your tuition, so all you have to do is flash your student ID to ride any bus in the county.

Diversity- Temple has a higher % of minorities than Pitt, but I don't believe the difference spans beyond 10%. The difference in gender is also minimal, but I believe Temple's female % is also higher.

Study abroad - from what I understand Pitt Law is not participating anymore in the semester at sea (I head some story about a large wave hitting the boat last year and causing probs, so I guess the school doesn't want to take on the liability...?). But they still have excellent services to get students set up with summer/semester abroad progs. Temple has a strong int'l studies program as well. Some of the locations offered by the school include Tokyo, Beijing, and Ireland.

Special programs - Temple offers programs for areas of specialization in: Trial Advocacy, Business and Tax Law, International Law, Intellectual Property & Technology, and Public Interest Law. They also offer a variety of clinical edu. progs. Pitt has a variety of certificate programs, including: Civil Lit,, Enviro Law Science and Policy, Intellectual Property and Tech Law, Int'l and Comparative Law, and Health Law (ranked #11 on USN). They also offer 7-unit clinical progs. with the Enviro Law Clinic, Civil Practice Clinic, Health Law Clinic, and Elder law clinic (the Elder Law clinic is one of only a few in the country).

Bar passage - Both schools exceed the state's passage rate for first time bar takers.

Jobs/ Show me the money - Grads from either school will obviously place well in their respective cities. Pitt grads also place very well in Philly (among other Mid-Atlantic cities), so in my opinion being at Pitt gives you the best of both worlds because Pitt grads have a lot of advantages in the Pittsburgh legal market, but can also move east and still find many opportunities.

Upside/Downside of locations -
Upside Pittsburgh - Has a small town feel, but you're still in a city. Grads only have to compete with Duquesne students, so finding a job locally isn't a tough gig.
Downside Pittsburgh - Not as exciting as some of the other large cities throughout the country (in terms of things to do, etc). But I suppose this isn't a bad thing when you want as few distractions as possible.

Upside Temple - Lots to do in the city, and you're in a larger job market. You're also closer to nearby cities like Baltimore and DC so if you find opportunities in the summer or school year, it's not too hard to get over to other cities. And in general there's a lot more going on in the city when compared with Pittsburgh.
Downside Temple - Things are a little more costly and there are more fun distractions of a big city. Grads also have Penn students to compete with in the local market.

So hope this info helps a little bit. Oh and how did I choose between the two, you wonder? Well fate made the decision for me - Temple was one of the schools I was rejected from, while Pitt admitted me w/ $$. go figure. But I think I would have been ultimately happy even if the situation had been reversed. Anyways, take a look at both and see which school meets your own needs... but you might end up like me, with fate making the final decision.

Good luck!!

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: Pitt Visit
« on: October 30, 2005, 01:30:49 PM »
This summer I attended CLEO and it was hosted and run by Pitt Law.  I lived on Pitt's campus for six weeks.  We had Pitt professors who taught our classes, and used the Pitt facilities.  I was incredibly impressed.  I learned A LOT from my Professors at Pitt (more so than some of my Professors at Duke).  I had Dean Deasy and Professor Wasserman for Civ Pro, and Dean Jones for Crim Law.  My Legal Writing Professor was Brostoff.  I don't know if they teach the same for CLEO as they do for their regular law classes, but they made everything understandable and the academic success of the students was a huge priority to them.  They were all approachable (not the least bit intimidating), and I never worried about the Socratic Method in their classes, because they treat the students like humans.  I really liked the library and the student area in the basement.  From what I could tell of the Pitt Law students, they were a really diverse group (which I think improves a law school's environment immensely) and were very accomplished.  I loved the atmosphere of the law school.  About Pitt (the city), I wasn't entirely too impressed.  The law school is located in Oakland, which is not the nicest area of the city.  However, if you choose to live on the other side of Carnegie Mellon, the area is much nicer.  I really enjoyed Shadyside, a lot, too.  The bus system wasn't that bad from those areas to the law school.  If you want something within walking distance, you will either live in a not nice area, or walk far.  I would suggest walking far.  We were housed in the Towers, and it was incredibly suffocating to live in an area where there was not a lot to do within walking distance.  Living that close to the hospitals was noisy and took some getting used to.  And again, it was not the best of areas.  The nightlife in Pittsburgh kinda sucked.  Everyone says not to worry about a town's nightlife because you will do nothing but study when you are in law school.  I'm sorry, but everyone needs a break every once in will go insane if you do nothing but study.  I really prefered the small bars to the clubs, and Pittsburgh has a lot of good small bars.  I think that's about it.  If anyone has any questions, let me know.

You are completely right about your classroom experience at Pitt. The professors are approachable and I feel like I've learned so much in only a few months. The school also has a good amount of certificate programs, so I'm definitely going to incorporate that into my studies at the law school. The library is GREAT, with there are lots of places to study, and the professor's offices are in the library which makes it covenient to drop in a see anyone if you have questions. The library also has a Stabucks lounge, so it's nice to be able to pop in for some coffee/snacks without having to pack up all your stuff to go out of the building.

As for the living situation... most of the undergrads live in Oakland, while the graduate students and young professionals live farther away from campus in Shadyside and Squirrel Hill (near Carnegie Mellon). Those neighborhoods are much nicer and very quiet, and only about a 15 minute bus ride to campus. Oakland is lower in cost, but the area isn't as nice and kind of has an animal house/ undergrad feel to it. (Not that this is bad, but adequate sleep in a precious commodity in law school!!) And yes, Oakland is closer to the hospitals so I wouldn't recommend living over there because you'll hear all the ambulances and helicopters moving about all the time. The towers where you stayed in the summer only house undergrads, so law students have to arrange for their own housing.

The nightlife in Pittsburgh isn't as posh as what you would find in other cities like L.A. or NY, but considering that I've spend a majority of my time with my nose in all my casebooks, I'm not really conerned about that. And, most law students don't have the extra cash to blow in upscale clubs with $20 covers and $15 drinks, know what I mean? Sure the clubs in Pittsburgh could be better, but we don't go to law school to go clubbing, right? But the law students still find time to take breaks and go out, whether someone is having a party or if they are heading out away from the campus. There are a variety of clubs down in "The Strip District" and also on the South Side (a lot of clubs don't have covers, or if they do, it's often less than $10 to get in). There are also lots of local bars in the Shadyside/ Squirrel Hill area where young folks hang out. The students also go out for "Bar Review" once a week on Thursdays, and just kinda chill out before the weekend starts. Yes, the bars are not ultra glam or anything, but not all of them are dive bars either... I have to admit, it's a nice change to go out and get $1-2 dollar beers, and it's rare to find mixed drinks running beyond $4 bucks.

Good luck with your apps, and feel free to continue to post questions if anyone has any.....

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