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Messages - Steve.jd

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11

Idealistic belief in the power and importance of public education. Other than that, my Dad is a teacher's union activist and I was brought up with that influence. I believe strongly in the duty of a just society to assure opportunity, and as a (relatively) talented person, I think it's goood for talented people to patronize the system. If everyone smart is "sorted" out of public education and cherry-picked into private institutions, it dilutes the quality of the public education's student body and thus the strength and viability of the programs.

That said, I'm no saint, and this is by no means an OVERRIDING need. I applied to some private schools, as well, just in case... but a law school's public status earns it a lot of points with me. (Yes, I realize how strange that is.) That's just my preferred result.

Please forgive the naive question, but why is it important for "smart" students to remain at a public institution?  I'm not quite sure I see how their absence would harm the strength/viability of the programs.  It seems to me that the strength of a school comes from its abilities to produce excellent graduates far more so than it comes from attracting excellent applicants.

His argument makes sense if you buy the idea that a class that has smart students will be a better learning experience because they will help facilitate and improve the discussion.  Especially in a place like law school you learn just as much from your peers as you do from the professor. 

Top schools like Mich/UVA/Berkeley have no problem attracting top students.  Not sure that the departure of some applicants to other top schools hurts those top publics very much at all.  I can see this making more sense for other publics, but not those three (plus UT, UCLA, etc).

I was just making the argument for public schools in general.  Personally, I think its more applicable for high school than for higher education.

12

Idealistic belief in the power and importance of public education. Other than that, my Dad is a teacher's union activist and I was brought up with that influence. I believe strongly in the duty of a just society to assure opportunity, and as a (relatively) talented person, I think it's goood for talented people to patronize the system. If everyone smart is "sorted" out of public education and cherry-picked into private institutions, it dilutes the quality of the public education's student body and thus the strength and viability of the programs.

That said, I'm no saint, and this is by no means an OVERRIDING need. I applied to some private schools, as well, just in case... but a law school's public status earns it a lot of points with me. (Yes, I realize how strange that is.) That's just my preferred result.

Please forgive the naive question, but why is it important for "smart" students to remain at a public institution?  I'm not quite sure I see how their absence would harm the strength/viability of the programs.  It seems to me that the strength of a school comes from its abilities to produce excellent graduates far more so than it comes from attracting excellent applicants.

His argument makes sense if you buy the idea that a class that has smart students will be a better learning experience because they will help facilitate and improve the discussion.  Especially in a place like law school you learn just as much from your peers as you do from the professor. 

13
I was really very confused by all of this.  First, because Steve was really into Michigan until Harvard decided to take him (I think late, although I might be wrong about that), and also because I'd never noticed him being a prestige whore at all last cycle. 

Oh, and I have no idea what Cravath is. 

I actually thought we were talking about ties. 

I've always liked Michigan and still do - I was actually into Michigan until NYU gave me money, then into NYU until CLS gave me money, then into H.

Just, because I like a school doesn't mean that I have to unquestioningly spew forth all its virtues without tempering them with some (of what I see as) defects.

I think, for "all intensive purposes", this one sentence justifies every allegation of prestige-whoredom made against Steve, now or in the future.



Just out of curiousity do you think I should have went to Mich over HLS?  Would you?

I would, actually. But I wouldn't expect anyone else to, you included. I just have a strong affinity for Michigan rooted in my early childhood, and grandiose prestige really isn't very important to me. I also aspire to be educated, from Pre-K through university, JD, LL.M., and S.J.D., entirely by public instututions. So, I'm not a good example.


I think you're still missing the point, though. Nobody begrudges you choosing Harvard. The fact that you so reliably switched preferences on the basis of single ranking in USNews is really pretty disturbing... People here aren't arguing that NO difference exists b/w Mich. and Harvard, but that the difference is not particularly material. They're saying, it's not BIG enough for you to make such a big deal of it. It's a different argument.

In my defense I actually switched from Mich to NYU when NYU became cheaper to CLS when CLS became cheaper and to HLS which was the cheapest option of all.  So, if anything I was picking schools based not on rankings but on cost.

EDIT: Full disclosure - I would have picked HLS over any other school regardless of cost, but for those who actually remember me from last cycle if you recall when I got into CLS I didn't want to go because NYU was so much cheaper.  I changed my mind after they basically matched NYU.

14
Just out of curiousity do you think I should have went to Mich over HLS?  Would you?

Did they Darrow you?

Nope.

Mich - 18k/yr
NYU - 25k/yr
CLS - 20k/yr

15
I was really very confused by all of this.  First, because Steve was really into Michigan until Harvard decided to take him (I think late, although I might be wrong about that), and also because I'd never noticed him being a prestige whore at all last cycle. 

Oh, and I have no idea what Cravath is. 

I actually thought we were talking about ties. 

I've always liked Michigan and still do - I was actually into Michigan until NYU gave me money, then into NYU until CLS gave me money, then into H.

Just, because I like a school doesn't mean that I have to unquestioningly spew forth all its virtues without tempering them with some (of what I see as) defects.

I think, for "all intensive purposes", this one sentence justifies every allegation of prestige-whoredom made against Steve, now or in the future.



Just out of curiousity do you think I should have went to Mich over HLS?  Would you?

16
I was really very confused by all of this.  First, because Steve was really into Michigan until Harvard decided to take him (I think late, although I might be wrong about that), and also because I'd never noticed him being a prestige whore at all last cycle. 

Oh, and I have no idea what Cravath is. 

I actually thought we were talking about ties. 

I've always liked Michigan and still do - I was actually into Michigan until NYU gave me money, then into NYU until CLS gave me money, then into H.

Just, because I like a school doesn't mean that I have to unquestioningly spew forth all its virtues without tempering them with some (of what I see as) defects.

17
The people go where it's better argument is ridiculous.

People go where a (TTT) news magazine tells them to and the news magazine looks at a stupid test that proves nothing in order to come to their own conclusions.  Oh, and they ask a bunch of people their opinions of 200 or so different schools, as though any of those people actually bothered to truly exaimine the differences between them.

The legal field is a racket for prestige whores on all levels.  If that's someone's bag, so be it.  Just don't try to pretend it's anything more than that. 

I meant they go where its better for them.  If 300 million people think NYU > Mich than for all intensive purposes (employment) it is, correct?

Yeah, Steveling, may I remind you that I've made no objections whatsoever to the substance of your NYU-trumps-Michigan argument?  You could roll out all of the objective, empirical evidence in the world proving *conclusively* that there is a world of difference between the two - I would remain delighted with my school, my personal choices, and my prospects.  This is not the same as needing to believe that Michigan is the pinnacle of prestige.  I feel very very lucky to be at one of the best schools in the nation, and will be the first to concede that it's not The Best.  I am overwhelmingly positive about Michigan...as you well know, since you spend so much time indulging us with your enlightened views in the "Michigan 1L" thread.   ::)


May I also remind you that I never asserted that every single person should pick NYU over Mich.  Some people prefer a smaller city, or the outdoors, or have family in one location or the other, but looking purely at employment prospects NYU > Mich so all else equal NYU > Mich.

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No, my misguided friend, I and many others object to the style, not the substance.  It's the fact that you're a know-it-all who can't keep his opinions to himself and who actually knows very little.  Your thoughts may have been solicited here, but they're generally not.  As several others have already pointed out, you pop up everywhere with your two-bit self-aggrandizing, self-assured, smarmy nonsense.  And I'm not just talking LSD - one of my dearest friends goes to school with you IRL, and apparently the online persona is not schtick. 


I would be shocked if there weren't people who didn't like me, but I'm comfortable with who I am, and don't need your validation (or anyone elses).

Umm the only reason I ever say anything in the Michigan 1L thread is to answer questions about ASW or the city - I don't think I've ever said anything but good things in that thread.

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Red is right, tho - I generally ignore the handful of posters who rub me the wrong way, but this was a major case of "I've been holding back for so long and he's really asking for it now." 

Oh, and for the record, responding to someone who views the world differently by calling him a socialist and saying that he should move to France is precisely the sort of douchebaggery that made me suggest you're too young for your own good. 

So would you then put last light and halfie in his place for responding to someone who views the world differently by calling them a "bushie" as immature?

18
Reconcile this thought:

"All that evil needs to take over is for good men to stand by and do nothing" - Edmund Burke

...with these two thoughts:

As long as my desires don't affect/hurt you it really isn't any of your concern.  Last I checked this was still the land of the free not a socialist farce.


The last time I checked we don't individually live in a vacuum. HTFH, tool.

So, I should give up my wordly goods and go fight world hunger?  Why don't you head to France or somewhere similar; I'll gladly pay for a one-way ticket if you surrender citizenship.



Sure thing - I can combat evil (i.e. the stupidity of yourself and Joe) while still making money and not living like a pauper.  I don't see the problem.

19

So, I should give up my wordly goods and go fight world hunger?  Why don't you head to France or somewhere similar; I'll gladly pay for a one-way ticket if you surrender citizenship.


France, huh? Still eating your 'freedom fries'?

But whatever. I'm quite sure you'll have a meaningful, worthwhile life in your own oblivious way.

Just for you to think about, for whatever it's worth:

"We must rapidly begin the shift from a "thing-oriented" society to a "person-oriented" society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."  - MLK, Jr.

Racism is an evil.

Materialism and militarism on the other hand I'm all for.

20
Umm no, the two posts that began this "argument" were when I said that "NYU is better than Michigan" and that "NYU is not 10x better than Michigan" - that was it, and I stand by that.

You created a strawman argument that I did not make in order to make your pathetic assertions more plausible.  Also, notice how 90% of the people who joined in are either at Michigan, or planning on going there next year.

No.  I was perfectly willing to concede that NYU might be marginally better than Michigan for certain things.  You said that it's MUCH better, IN A DIFFERENT LEAGUE,

Actually you made both of those arguments Joe I simply agreed to them.

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 not simply that "NYU is better than Michigan," and further asserted that it is this in terms out probable outcome even if one is completely unconcerned with prestige.

This is correct.

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  Then I asked for statistics and for you to tell me what the real expected difference would be and you said "it's subjective," i.e. "I have no idea...

Figuring out the exact numerical difference would be a monumental task - one I am not willing to do, however the difference is there and what cross-admits choose is proof of that difference, people tend to go where its better.

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but cross-admits tend to choose NYU so it must be dramatic indeed!"  You have, of course, repeatedly attempted to silently back off of your stunning assertion (in an attempt, one might surmise, to appear reasonable), but you haven't actually done so; nor have you provided the simple evidence (or even assertion) that I asked for (because, you said, you are unable to do so because this difference can't be defined in tangible terms).

And yeah, Jolie is at UM and Gengis is going there next year.  Whoop-de-dee-damn-do.

You also forgot the brilliant post who is death and taxes.

So, I should give up my wordly goods and go fight world hunger?  Why don't you head to France or somewhere similar; I'll gladly pay for a one-way ticket if you surrender citizenship.

France, huh? Still eating your 'freedom fries'?

Oh wow, I was right?!  He IS a Bushie?!

And Steve, I definitely remember seeing something in this thread about "I'm leaving, I don't care enough to argue this with y'all."  What happened?

Yes, along with more than half the population.

Stupidity must be answered:

"All that evil needs to take over is for good men to stand by and do nothing" - Edmund Burke

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