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Messages - AtlantaSteve

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Minority Topics / Re: Ask a Homosexual
« on: May 19, 2006, 05:05:57 PM »
And while I see the value of (most) gay rights strategies as securing temporary toeholds in society for some gays and lesbians, I am more interested, long term, in busting the whole thing up. 

Can you elaborate on what you mean by "busting the whole thing up"?  My point of contention with H4CS is that he/she/it made it sound like they were arguing for the removal of ALL social mores surrounding sexuality.  In other words, that society should have no difference in its approval of promiscuity vs. monogamy, safe sex vs. irresponsible practice, healthy personal boundaries vs. acting out, etc.  I simply don't believe that such a position is wise, nor that it is a prerequisite for gay rights or acceptance.  I'm talking about certain values that are shared by most homosexuals... yet it seems like I'm being attacked and called a bigot for it, and it's simply not right.

***EDIT*** On reflection, maybe this is less a political thing and more an age/generational thing.  I'm in my mid-30's with a family today, whereas I get the impression that H4CS is a recent undergrad.  When I was in my early-20's, I looked at monogamy as a "frumpy" choice for people who were "uptight", I didn't see the big deal if I had sex without protection "only once in a awhile", and I could act out a bit at parties.  As I got older I started seeing those notions as being childish, that there is some wisdom to structures and values.

General Off-Topic Board / Re: s3x offendors
« on: May 19, 2006, 04:51:34 PM »
Ehh, this is one of those emotional issues where even though logic is staring you dead in the face, you don't want to look at it.  Obviously, being a child murderer is worse than being a child molester... so letting the former "pay his debt to society" while the latter receives essentially life without parole is pretty messed up.  At the same time though, who has fire in the belly for defending the rights of molesters?  I'm kind of neutral, this seems like an isuse where society loses either way.

On a less serious (but not quite joking) note, I'm surprised that capitalism hasn't taken advantage of the market opportunity here.  The suburban Atlanta housing market is almost nothing but subdivisions, which are usually strictly partitioned by demographic.  There are subdivisions marketed JUST to whites, blacks, Latinos... and the Asians are more racially isolationist than all other demos combined.  You say that there are 10,541 registered sex offenders in Georgia?  Hell, that's enough to fill about FIFTY average-sized subdivisions, from which developers would gross $20-40 million each.  Why hasn't someone built a condo or subdivision catering to the discerning upscale kiddie-diddler?  :)

Minority Topics / Re: Ask a Homosexual
« on: May 19, 2006, 04:11:46 PM »
The whole point is that there should not be stereotypes about sexuality, that's what people were fighting for.  The civil rights movement was not about fighting for people to be looters, it's what so offensive about your analogies. 

Herein lies the crux of our disagreement.  I do not see the aim of the gay pride movement to be destruction of all notions, conceptions, and social mores surrounding sexuality.  The gay rights movement simply wants equal rights and acceptance for consentual adult partnerships, regardless of gender.  That's it. 

You are making the gay rights movement out to be some kind of free-form, nebulous, "Free Love" movement a la the 1960's counter-culture... and that's just not what it is.  It's not about tearing down society's approval of monogomous relationships over promiscuity.  It's not about the advancement of any particular fetish behaviors.  It's not about healing crystals, or wicca, or Tibetan chanting, or the dawning of the Age of Aquarius, or anything else.

As with any movement, there are no doubt subsets that have more expanded or specialized agendas.  However, that does not change the over-arching agenda that the movement holds in common.  You are right... I do not believe that the civil rights movement was about fighting for people's rights to be looters.  I also do not believe that the gay rights movement is about total sexual relativism, that's NOT what they're fighting for.

Minority Topics / Re: Ask a Homosexual
« on: May 19, 2006, 03:31:00 PM »
There are a lot of people who aren't heroes in this world AtlantaSteve, you should work on going after them too .  Anyone who has to enter a conversation saying "I'm as tolerant as the next" probably isn't and I think your purposly bad analogies show this. 

My original point, to which you've done a bad job of responding, was that there is no need to demonize those who express themselves in this manner.  I mentioned how the movement has changed, but that nobody should accept that as a reason to violate originating principles of tolerance for all sexualities.  I think you've shown anything but.  Nobody called anybody a hero, but you felt the need to respond with puh-leeze, make a strawman, and show your true colors again.  I'm glad to know I was right about you in the Duke thread.

Do I know you?!?  By "the Duke thread", I assume you're referring to one of the two or three different threads that sprounted up about the lacrosse team.  The fact that I don't recall you or which "side" you were on is due to the fact that I had disagreements with both sides discussing that issue, because I was far less of looney-tunes extremist than most people posting there (case in point). "I'm glad to know I was right about you...", geeze, do you have any idea how childish that sounds?

You're going more than a bit overboard here.  I drew analogies between homosexuals acting out other's negative stereotypes of themselves, and two minority groups theoretically doing the same.  If you failed to understand the point being made, then you should probably work on your knee-jerk reflexes before you have to deal with problem-solving in law school.  There are also key differences between "tolerance" and "acceptance".  You can tolerate a behavior (without "demonizing" anybody) while simultaneously declining to accept the behavior as decent or healthy, and this distinction does not make you a bigot or hatemonger of any kind.

To illustrate, I believe that explicit sexual expression in public is poor behavior (and I apply that standard to ALL groups).  At the same time, I think driving a Hummer is poor behavior... it doesn't mean I "make strawmen" or "demonize" SUV owners.  Alot of people are putting in their 2-cents to say that discussion makes more out the issue than what's really there, and I couldn't agree more.  I've already stated three times that the people we're arguing over make up probably less than 1% of participants and are not representative.

Asian Chick:  Who is General Tso and why do we honour him with a chicken dish?

Damn dude, even I know that one.  China went through a Civil War right around the same time that the U.S. did, and General Tso was their Ulysees Grant.  Maybe the guy just really loved his chicken and MSG.

Minority Topics / Re: Ask a Homosexual
« on: May 19, 2006, 02:56:56 PM »
At the same time, I still call major B.S. on the apologists who chalk that behavior up to "desensitizing people out of their prejudice".  Give me a break, it only reinforces people's prejudice.  When the African American community organized the Million Man March, were they accepting and supportive of participants "thugging out" in gang colors and firing guns at the sky?  In the immigrant rights protests earlier this month, would organizers have tolerated participants dancing around piņatas and eating tacos while wearing novelty-sized sombreros?

first off, stop with the bad analogies.  these also aren't applicable.

Those two analogies were were deliberately bad to make a point, Trogdor.  Quote both paragraphs I wrote if you're going to quote at all.

Third, I agree with trogdor about the self-expression/shock/autonomy bit, but I also think there are other reasons for the sexually explicit imagery at Pride.  For one, it's often the biggest place to reach audiences of men who have sex with men who are NOT well integrated into gay communities with information about safe sex, HIV testing, help overcoming your crystal meth addiction, etc. A pamphlet about how much fun blowjobs with condoms are is pretty unconvincing without some hot guys enjoying them.  Actually, it's unconvincing anyway, but there you go.

Finally, it seems as if every time queer communities try to police out perversion, they end up marginalizing people who are perhaps in the most need of the communities' resources.  Continually re-centering LGBT agendas around long-term monogamy, and the related campaigns for marriage equality and such, hasn't done most of us any good. I, for one, definitely want the healthy S/M guide in the bookstore where young practitioners can find it.  I want STD testing information and trans surgical information out there.  I think we need to support queer sex workers and homeless queer youth, for whom marriage is the last thing on their minds.  I want to see condoms distributed anywhere men have sex, whether it's the gym or the porn store or a DL bar uptown or wherever.  I worry that if we try to control people's behavior in Pride parades, we're just pushing them out into the cold, and I don't want to be part of a community that would do that.

Very articulate point, MissP.  I'm not trying to suggest that the wild minority should be shunned, or kicked out, or whatever... those kinds of decisions aren't my business.  I'm just saying that they're not "heros" working subversively for the greater good, and it's silly to make it out otherwise.  That's all.

Minority Topics / Re: Ask a Homosexual
« on: May 19, 2006, 01:34:35 PM »
Geeze, I step away from LSD for a few hours, and people are making it out like I said pride parades are OVERWHELMINGLY about people being exhibitionist.  Hey folks, I work and play in the Midtown and Decatur neighborhoods of Atlanta... I'm pretty familiar with gay pride events.  Of course, I'm only referring to 1% of participants (if that).

At the same time, I still call major B.S. on the apologists who chalk that behavior up to "desensitizing people out of their prejudice".  Give me a break, it only reinforces people's prejudice.  When the African American community organized the Million Man March, were they accepting and supportive of participants "thugging out" in gang colors and firing guns at the sky?  In the immigrant rights protests earlier this month, would organizers have tolerated participants dancing around piņatas and eating tacos while wearing novelty-sized sombreros? 

OF COURSE NOT.  In those scenerios, you could make the same argument that participants are "expressing their identity" through shock value to desensitize people.  Oh, what's that you say?  Those behaviors aren't truly representative of their group's identity, and it's bigotry for me to suggest otherwise?  EXACTLY.  Most gay people are decent, well-adjusted people who practice sexual expression through monogamous loving relationships (well, at least in the same ratios as do straight people, anyway).  A small number of people dancing around and waving their d*cks in the middle of a public street is not "expressing the identity" of America's gay community.  They're expressing an exaggerated perversion of that identity that is used to fuel bigotry and hatred.  With friends like those, homosexuals don't need enemies.

(By the way, the comparisons to Mardi Gras and people making out on subways are spot-on.  How many straight people appreciate that kind of behavior representing THEIR sexuality?  I think there are common standards of "decency" that transcend the gender of your partners, and it represents true acceptance of homosexuals when they are included under that umbrella.)

Minority Topics / Re: Ask a Homosexual
« on: May 19, 2006, 08:57:22 AM »
This kind of attitude has always upset me.  There was a time when the gay rights movement fought against the idea of anyone controlling anyone else's sexuality, fought the idea that there was a normal way to express sexuality.  As the members of the movement aged, the cause became more about getting rights than about changing the public's view of sexuality.  As a tactical move, I can support it, but there is no reason to sacrifice one on the alter of the other.  It's time to stop being embarassed and start embracing anyone who has the courage to express him/herself.  You still see this everywhere as activists fight being coopted by the mainstream gay rights movement, but there should be enough room under the umbrella for everyone.

i'm actually very torn about this.  on one hand, i see some of the pride events, and i'm absolutely horrified by some of the displays.  on the other hand, i understand the role of "subversive" identity politics in order to make a symbolic point. 

Oh puh-leeze.  I came to this thread with my bleeding-heart credentials firmly on my sleeve, but nude dancing and public sex-play in pride parades has about as much to do with "subversive identity politics" as looting during the LA riots had to do with promoting civil rights.  It's all about capitalizing on the opportunity to get a free TV, so to speak.

Pride parades are the one day out of the year when people who feel suppressed can "cut loose" in a supportive environment, so some people go wild with it.  I'm not saying it's "right" or "wrong" (that's more an issue for the gay community to debate internally), but I am saying it's more about the individual than any collective strategy for the greater good.

General Off-Topic Board / Re: Ask a Redneck
« on: May 18, 2006, 09:52:56 PM »
would you buy a red or yellow mini cooper if it were the last car on the planet?  would you tell your friends?

Sure.  With a car that small, I could put it up on concrete blocks in my yard without having to use a jack!

General Off-Topic Board / Re: Ask a Muslim anything.
« on: May 18, 2006, 08:24:33 PM »
Troll, I usually have a good deal of patience, but this is just getting too predictable.  I think when you had the nerve to accuse liberals of being blinded by their own viewpoint is when I decided to give up. 

You've got to be kidding, that's the ONLY thing he's said that I agree with! :D  Of course, since you restate the same position one paragraph later, you may just be playing with sarcasm.

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