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Messages - nycesq2005

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31
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Touro Law Center
« on: May 12, 2005, 11:22:19 AM »

>>>Fordham Law is ranked #27 in the nation- its a Tier 1 school. It doesn't have the same prestige as NYU, Cornell or Columbia- but its certainly more than just a "decent regional school" in my opinion.

Brooklyn and Cardozo are ranked #58, Fordham is #27 (which is firmly within Tier 1)- and if you look at the stats for the entering classes, you'll see that Fordham's is several cuts above Brooklyn and Cardozo- which are both still great schools that both have the top quarter of their classes getting into BigLaw after graduation. Sure NYU grads can all get into BigLaw, but half of Fordham's class can, which is still pretty damn impressive.

Both Brooklyn and Cardozo are significantly better than Hofstra and St. John's. It and Hofstra are still not on the same level as Brooklyn or Cardozo. Only about the top 10% of Hofstra and St. John's could get into BigLaw, instead of the top 25% from Brooklyn and Cardozo.

SUNY Buffalo is a Tier 2 school- NYLS is either a Tier 3 or a Tier 4 school, I don't remember which, but I do remember that Buffalo is Tier 2.
Quote

Okay you are correct if you were to blindly rely only on the US News Rankings.

The way I wrote it is the way law firms and the NYC legal community overall views all schools based on an average of the school's quality from about 1996 to the Present.

Fordham is a solid regional school, and it is indeed Tier 1, however bottom of the class (50% and below) end up working at the SAME law firms as BLS and Cardozo grads. I should know because I had friends in that same boat (and guess what, they received interviews at small firms just like the rest of BLS/Cardozo people).

another misconception is the diference between Hofstra/SJU and BLS/Cardozo. I went to BLS and while I always thought BLS and Cardozo were leagues above Hofstra/SJU in terms of admissions, their local rep is still pretty solid. My law firm makes NO DISTINCTION between a Brooklyn grad and a Hofstra grad. Sad but true. You still need to be top 20% from all 4 schools to get a BIGLAW job.

The reason a BLS student ranked top 32% may end up at a big law firm whereas a Hofstra 2L ranked in the same 32% may not is due ot intangibles, like undergrad attended (BLS student may have gone to Williams College and written a paper about corporate governance or something). Also, BLS offers competitive clinics that are attractive to employers when listed on a resume. Hofstra has bad clinics in my opinion, esp for students who have no interest in civil litigation or public sector/criminal law work.

For ex: Brooklyn offers the Securities Arb clinic which gives students an advantage over similarly situated students at other local schools like Hofstra/SJU/NYLS and grades being EQUAL, an employer who handles Securities cases will prefer the Brooklyn student who participated in that clinic over a NYLS/Hof/SJU student who didn't have that opportunity because the school does not offer that particular clinic.

In that sense, then YES students at Brooklyn and Cardozo edge out the rest by a SMALL margin.

But when it comes to standard small and mid-sized firms that practice general commercial litigation, there IS NO difference. Ask any attorney at the Nassau County Supreme courthouse, Queens County or in Brooklyn, and they will all tell you,"I think NYU, Col and Fordham are top schools, but once you get into T2,T3 it doesnt matter *&^%."

HTH.


32
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Touro Law Center
« on: May 11, 2005, 06:24:36 PM »
Touro is NOT LOCATED in Westchester County.

It is in Huntington, Long Island (Suffolk County) about an HOUR AWAY from New York City.

As pointed out above, it is ranked Tier 4. The average GPA/LSAT numbers are below th 50th percentile, about 2.9 and 151 if I recall correctly.

 Touro has the lowest bar passage rate of all the NY state law schools (there are 15)..While you can get a semi-decent private law firm job from Touro if you have high grades, most graduates secure employment with public sector and local government agencies.

In terms of prestige, this is how the firms view NY State Law Schools

TIER 1 (tops)

NYU
Columbia
Cornell

TIER 2 (decent regional schools)
Fordham
---->>>>
Brooklyn
Cardozo
Hofstra
St. John's
NYLS


TIER 3 (solid local only)

Albany
Pace
Syracuse
SUNY Buffalo

TIER 4 (bad rep, piss poor bar passage rate and high attrition)

Touro
CUNY Queens


33
Where should I go next fall? / Re: Cardozo v. Brooklyn
« on: May 09, 2005, 05:57:36 PM »
I choose Brooklyn over Cardozo - for starters my list of intangibles at the time were

1. BLS ranked higher than Cardozo re: salary stats and large firm placement

2. BLS had more alumni than Cardozo, thus more of a "national" presence than Cardozo-Yeshiva

3. BLS is located next to all the major court houses and gov't agencies making it easy to shuttle to part time internships between classes

4. My loan debt from BLS would be less than at Cardozo

5. I was not Jewish.

6. BLS had a prettier library than Cardozo.

7. BLS is a stand alone school and not affiliated with any other educational institution. whereas Cardozo is part of Yeshiva University so gets an advantage in rankings because of that.

8. In 1998, Cardozo claimed they would be "Tier 1" and was considered an "up and coming" school. That was 1998 and it has YET to ever break the top 50. If anything, like BLS in 2005 Rankings, Cardozo also fell in the rankings  (to #68 or so) in 2002-2004.

9. The clinic offerings at BLS were more suitable for me than the clinics at Cardozo. Also, the process for getting onto a Journal/Moot Court at BLS is less competitive than at Cardozo.

I recommend you visit both schools before you make a deposit. Even if Cardozo is in Manhattan, most of your time will be spent in the library and in classrooms - so it doesn't really matter! LOL.

Good luck!

34
Re Transferring from PT to FT for career :

There is no stigma attached to being Part time Day or Part time evening. When I was a 2L, I took 2 evening classes because my schedule was a bit crazy (part time job at a small firm required 20/hrs week minimum) and was VERY impressed with the quality of students represented. There are several BLS students that work full time and simply do not have the $$ or time/resources to undertake a full time schedule. Several of these students are now working at large corporate firms and really brought class discussion to a new level.

As to jobs, I took 1 summer class in 1L while working for a federal judge. The summer classes start at 6:30 or 7 pm and are usually once or twice a week. I received an A in that class and the curve was VERY favorable. I think employers were VERY impressed at my ability to juggle an evening class and a full time day job that 1L summer, and also work part time in 2L while being a FT student.

If you are a PT day student, the worst thing that can happen is you would graduate a semester later than everyone else. If you take an average of 1-2 summer classes each year, you can still graduate on time. Moreover, there are several acvities and indepdent study projects that give you credit for minimal effort. For ex, in 3L I carried about 15 credits but I only had 2 classes. One was a 2 cr indepdent study and the other 4 credits was a clinic (which doubled as "work experience" on my resume!).

So you can see, how going to BLS is a bargain. You get a top notch resume by graduation, AND you save money!!!

I dont see how anyone would want to choose another school if NYC is your desired place of employment.

I also dont need to mention that BLS has an excellent bar passage rate, and most 3L's are a head of the game when BAR/BRI starts because NY law is emphasized in some classes.

:-)


35
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: Brooklyn Alum Taking Questions
« on: May 09, 2005, 05:25:27 PM »
Hi, sorry for the delay. Was majorly busy with work..

To answer your questions:

* Did you primarily find these placements through the school or is it something that you did completely on your own?

Both. I did not have any legal experience when I enrolled at Brooklyn Law. My first legal experience was my 1L summer job with a federal judge. I secured that internship via the Judicial Externship/Clinic Program at BLS. Working for a state or federal judge in 1L summer is an extremely popular choice for most students.

I also worked part time for a NY County Lawyer's Assoc'n Bar Committe. I secured that job via Emplawyernet, a service provided FREE to all BLS students and alumni (i,e BLS alums submit job ads directly to the school for posting).

My 2L summer job was secured via On Campus Interviewing, and my 3L part time job was secured via Emplawyernet. I started working at a mid sized law firm shortly after graduation by sending my resume and cover letter directly to the law firm.

* What was your experience in getting a job after graduation?

See above. I did not have a job by the time I graduated because I had piss poor grades (not top 1/2). I simply sent out about 100 resumes to all the small and mid-sized law firms. I interviewed for jobs in August and was offered an associate position on the spot.

* Did you have a job lined up for some time prior to graduation?

Nope. See above.

* and how did you find the job prospects/ alumni network while looking for a job?

Alumni network is super helpful. I was able to have my resume referred to law firm hiring partners directly because of the contacts I had made at BLS. I was heavily involved in student activities and several BLS graduates that were ahead of me 1-2 yrs were always willing to help me out and would refer my resume directly instead of making me go through the standard pile of resumes that rarely get read by a Hiring Commmittee.

The key thing is, many NYC law firms have tons of BLS alums. You will know so many people when you graduate, and its all about your reputation. Last week in court I ran into a law school classmate, so just remember - the legal world is VERY small and law school can feel like high school some times (if you are popular, the world id your oyster. If you shun everyone, no one will want to help you).

And in other questions-
* Where did you live? (I am planning on living in the new Feil Hall- but regardless would be interested in knowing.)
I commuted from Queens. I did not wwant to undertake additional loan deb. The student housing is very nice though, and sometimes during finals I would sleep over my friend's apartment near the school. The student body is pretty social - and there is no distinction between students who live near the school/in the studenr housing and students who commute from other boroughs or NJ/upstate NY.


* Did you find the student body highly competitive?

Not any more so than other schools. Students generally help each other out, and like any school there are people who piss you off and people who are friendly. Those who want to be competitive and refuse to help a classmate usually get the same treatment back in some form or another. Once 1L grades are out, no one cares. The most "tense" semester is fall of 1L, because no one knows what the expect. There are a few students who are very annoying and will only create study groups based on incoming LSAT/GPA/prestige of undergrad attended - but they will soon learn how foolish that is when first semester grades come out.


* And on a non academic topic- how was the "social" experience at BLS. Did you find that some of your classmates were "friends" outside of class?

Definitely. My best friend from law school was my closest friend at work (I referred her into my law firm about 2 weeks after I started). We still keep in touch and its nice to see familiar faces in the courthouse.


Hope this answers most of your questions and if you need anything, please don't hesitate to pop me an email.

:)


36
I am obviously biased because I attended Brooklyn Law but I think BLS is a better choice over W&L. I also had a similar decision (T2 v. non-NY T1) and very happy I chose Brooklyn. For starters:

1. the part time day program really IS ONLY ONE LESS CLASS than regular Full time day. In fact, you can still transfer from PT day to FT day in the middle of September.

2. Brooklyn sends more than the top 15% of the class to big firms. American Lawyer ranked Brooklyn as the 4th best law school in NYC with respect to large law firm placement. Of those students who do not get biglaw offers through BLS OCI, the remainder secure offers via direct resume submission and other career fairs (each fall, the school participates in fairs throughout the Northeast, such as the BLSA Job Fair if you are a minority or the Patent Fair for those interested in Intellectual Property).

3. You can not beat the location. Brooklyn is tight with the local judges and law firms. Each year, several prominent federal judges choose Brooklyn students for part time internships and post-graduate clerkships. As a student, I had 2 offers from mid sized law firms because I was able to work part time during 2L and had a leg up on the competition (out of state law students who could only work during the summer).

4. Paying back loans is a pain. If you get $$ from BLS, its worth it. If you dont transfer from Part time to Full time, you can always take a summer class and catch up. There are so many classes to choose from.

5. Bottom line, NYC is much more exciting than the area surrounding W&L.

So there you have it. I think its a no-brainer.


37
Is the original post a flame?!??!! No seriously. Is it?

Cardozo is T2 and NYU is top 5. I can understand Fordham w/ $$ and NYU with full debt but CARDOZO?? No way. I;m sorry. I find this hard to believe. The choice is clear - NYU. The value of your degree will earn its investment long after you graduate. Its akin to turning down Harvard for a 4 yrs of free college at CUNY. Even if you don't want to work in biglaw, you can make contacts to go anywhere you please. Cardozo simply will NOT give you that.

Think carefully and choose NYU.


38
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Brooklyn Alum Taking Questions
« on: April 27, 2005, 09:49:34 AM »
Frequent lurker, first time posting. I noticed some of the readers on this board will be attending Brooklyn Law School this Fall. If you have any questions about the school (career placement,internships, professors) please feel free to ask. I graduated from Brooklyn in 2001 (went to college in upstate NY, class of '98) and now work at a 60 attorney commercial litigation firm in NYC. I enjoyed my experience at Brooklyn and would be happy to answer any questions for incoming 1L's.

NYCESQ2005@aol.com


39
Did you apply to Brooklyn???

I think NYU is the better choice only because your contacts at the school will help your overal network. You dont HAVE to work at a big law firm, but say you want to go into consulting or start your own business? Your classmates at NYU probably have wealthier contacts and people higher up than say, your classmates at Miami or Cardozo who come from the same lower to upper middle class families. That's just the way it is.

Either way, your answer wont be on this message board. When it comes to Cardozo or Miami, I would go with Miami simply because of location (study at the beach!!! woohoo!!). But seriously, I'd go to NYU and not stress the debt.

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