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Messages - nycesq2005

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<<<Hahahaha, well if it isn't the cranky guy from the message board<<<

For the record, I'm not a guy and secondly I didnt create that web site (brooklawtalk, which seems to be dead now that you have mentioned it). (EDIT: Now that I checked out their Forums, I had no idea there was new activity, thanks for the heads up, my user name on that will be the same as the one here).

>> whose life didn't turn out as he had planned. Still telling your horror stories & portraying the legal community as a gloomy, horrible place where no one can succeed? <<

Uhm, if your post is directed at me, I am not sure where you are getting this from. I am very happy with my job and my life. What ever other posts I've made on this board they reflect reality and fact, based on my experiences and those of my classmates, the good the bad and the ugly. Prospective 1L's are entitled to hear all viewpoints. I don't understand why you are attacking me, I said nothing in my post about "hating" the legal profession or portraying it as a "gloomy" horrible place.

>>I guess getting knocked down by law students on that board wasn't enough. Well, good luck with your cynicism. It seems to be working out well for you.<<

You must be confusing me with someone else. If you want to further info, feel free to email me at

Have a good day.


I've been reading your messages from the last year or so with some interest. I must admit, as a Bklyn Law grad, I'm impressed, you portray the school very well. Reading some of your posts, its like I am reading my own pists from many years ago (I graduated in 2001, and like you, interned for a federal magistrate judge in SDNY my 1L summer).

I also would be happy to answer any questions from any students interested in hearing about BLS, the good the bad and the ugly (bar failure, the fact that average BLS salary is really around mid 50s to mid 70s, regardless of career center staff puffery, and Bklyn's rep in NYC legal community (which is solid, but we are not in the same league as the big boys aka "T-14").
My email is listed on my profile.

Best of luck!

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Re: NYLS
« on: May 09, 2006, 07:23:51 PM »
2200 hours a year does not equal 8.5 hrs per day. I am a 2nd year associate at a small insurance defense firm. I have to bill 2200 hours a year which means I must bill 9.3 hrs per day. I get 2-3 weeks paid vacation and 11 legal holidays. For the month of April I billed 185 hrs which is a little over what I needed (for the month of April, we had 21 work days which means 21 X 9.3 = 178.6). Some months are obviously slower than others (December, November) hence I will have to bill 200+ hours in one month to offset another month where I may only bill 150 hrs.

I work from 9 am to about 6:30 pm. My firm doesnt care about face time, so I can leave at 5 pm on Fridays if I choose, provided I have entered my billing for the day.

Also, at my firm some tasks have pre set billing. If I draft a Complaint, we usually bill that as 1 or 2 hours but sometimes it takes me only 20 min to complete the task because another Associate gave me a template and I only cut and paste.

As to the original point of this thread, NYLS doesnt have a great reputation in NYC. I hate to break the news to you but firms DO care about rankings to the extent that brighter students "supposedly" attend better ranked schools. Clients aren't paying you to answer black letter law questions. This is where the theory and practice are molded together. Clients are paying you to solve their problems and also prevent future problems. They expect lawyers to understand legal theory and legal principles well enough to be able to apply them within the practical constraints of legal procedure.

Case in point: I attended a well respected T2 school (# 58 for those rankings whores) and at my firm we have one guy from an Ivy law school who regularly bills 200 hours per month. The guy is a geniuus, in so far as he is sharp and can understand complex arguments in a Court of Appeals case quickly enough to assimilate it and transfer them to a case we are handling. The guy simply catches on quick. That type of ability isnt taught in law schools, but is refined through the Socratic method at top schools. While I valued my education, I do agree that my job opportunities would have been exponentially increased had I attended a top 50 law school.

-My 2 cents.

Visits, Admit Days, and Open Houses / Brooklyn Law School's Blog
« on: June 17, 2005, 04:26:18 PM »
New blog for those students and graduates of Brooklyn Law in NYC:

Hopefully you will like it at BU and enjoy your 3 years there.

As a Bklyn alum, I obviously have my biases but I need to pipe in and correct two assumptions that are incorrect.

(1) BLS being the "5th" best school.  This is not true. Brooklyn is ranked equally as Cardozo and anyone who tells you Cardozo is somehow better than BLS is smoking crack. The truth is, BLS places equally if not better at big law firms than Cardozo. American Lawyer ran a survey showing BLS coming in 4th place right behind Fordham (4th). Once you get past NYU/Columbia, the strongest regional schools are Fordham, Brooklyn and Cardozo. You need to be top 10-25% for a big firm job (big defined as a firm with over 100 attorneys), and top 35% or so from Fordham.

(2) As far as BLS v. Fordham: I met many classmates who chose Brooklyn with $$ over Fordham with no $$. There really isn't a MAJOR gap between Fordham and BLS (30 spots maybe in rankings, but in "real life" reputation, NOT REALLY.

The snooty white shoe firms like Cravath and Davis Polk usually take only 1 or 2 people from schools ranked Top 10 and BELOW. So the argument re: Fordham being leagues above Brooklyn does not hold water.

Also, BLS has a strong connection to entertainment firms in NYC. Apart from location, the school has a Entertainment law clinic (Civil) which really helps students crack the field.

As was posted above by the woman who's husband attended Brooklyn, cracking the Entertainment Law field is all about connections. Its not just how you look on paper, but who you know.

In any case, it seems you are pretty set on BU based on its ranking and overall rep. Congrats to you, and if you hate it after 1L, you can always join the rest of your NYC friends at Bklyn.


Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Touro Law Center
« on: May 12, 2005, 02:49:27 PM »
If you look at my original post, I DID list Fordham as a level above BLS and Cardozo. I never put Fordham in the same category as BLS and Cardozo because I know about 40% of the class go to top firms and that it ranks 30 spots higher (although there were two years where Fordham ranked # 35 and 40 respectively, its always been a school ranked in the 30-40 range). I'm not arguing that, Fordham has always had a stronger student body (admission-wise) than BLS/Cardozo and has greater geographic diversity represented in its incoming class.

As such, it would T1 - NYU/Col/Cornell, T1.5 - Fordham, T2 - BLS/Cardozo/SJU/Hofstra, etc.

Thats what the
 was for.

However, being bottom half at Fordham: you might as well just have saved the $$ and gone to BLS/Cardozo. If your grades at Fordham are good, you have great options. If they aren't, you aren't going to get a job at Skadden or Davis Polk, simple as that.

Now can we move on from this discussion already?

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: brooklyn
« on: May 12, 2005, 02:42:32 PM »
Thats really funny if BLS is pulling all these shenangians to get people to remain committed until the first day of class.

Every year BLS gets major waitlist activity around mid July to August. The fact is, its a chain reaction and it affects schools ranked T2 and below the worst. The year I applied, BLS waitlisted 50% of students within a certain LSAT and GPA range. They didnt even bother reading the entire application, they simply waitlisted people because they did not want to accept knowing that most of them would withdraw at the last minute.

When Duke and Michigan opened up about 5-15 extra seats in the Full Time program, those 5-15 students withdrew from BLS and BLS, in turn, now had to rush to fill those 15 seats in mid August. You got it, the first thing they did was (1) call the Part Time Day people and ask them to switch to FT, or (2) call the Waitlisted people to offer them admission.

Its simply a question of ensuring the most competitive applicant enrolls. The school would rather have a 167/3.6 student enroll and pay a late deposit (mid May, June) than remove a 154/3.2 applicant from the waitlist knowing the 154 will bring down their median LSAT range for USNEWS purposes, its all a game.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Touro Law Center
« on: May 12, 2005, 11:35:16 AM »
From personal experience, I've only met about 8 Touro grads in my internships during law school and at my current firm. I met none when I worked in the federal courthouse in Brooklyn & Manhattan. I did have one case last week where my opposing counsel was a 2000 Touro grad, he was much older (early 40's) but very well regarded in his firm. I liked dealing with him, he was very peresonable.

I don't have much exposure to Touro grads though, as my understanding is that the majority of private firms that hire and retain Touro grads practice in the area of personal injury or local insurance defense.

You might want to speak to current Touro students to get a better sense of career prospects. The law firms around Suffolk County are pretty receptive to Touro grads getting hired as interns or entry level attorneys.

If you are interested in firm placement, you might want to check out Martindale Hubbell

Plug in the name of a law firm and type "Touro" in the School Name field.

For Wilson Elser (600 attorney insurance defense law firm with offices throughout Northeast), I only found 5 Touro grads.

For Wilson Elser, I plugged in Hofstra and received 19 listings:

I did a search for the # of Brooklyn grads at Wilson Elser and received 36 gradautes:

More startling, I also put in St. John's Law in the field for Wilson Elser and found 56 graduates:

So as a tally:

56 = St. Johns

36= Brooklyn

19 = Hofstra

5 = Touro

You start to see a pattern..right?

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Touro Law Center
« on: May 12, 2005, 11:09:34 AM »
i like to hear what u say and i hope its true, but id really like if someone that knows this firsthand can come and verify this.

IM next time you are online (if you uas AOL instant messenger) and I'll be happy to refer you to some lawyer friends of mine who feel the same way.

I worked for 1 federal judge who agrees with this assesment, and also 2 state court judges who were my professors in law school (for a clinic and an elective evening course).  I think its silly to argue the merits of one school being "better" or "worse" than another by virtue of a 5-10 spot difference in USNews. Since its a magazine, the editors at US News are obligated to move schools up and down just to create a stir and get people to buy the issue, its all about simple marketing and advertising. If Hofstra dropped to Tier 4 one year does it mean the school is as crappy as CUNY?? Would things change if they went back to Tier 2? Please.

Anyway you slice it, if you want to work for a big law firm - it doesn't matter which of the 4 schools you pick (BLS/Cardozo/SJU/Hofstra) to get a job at BIGLAW. Your grades still have to be stellar. If you're at NYU or Columbia, then all bets are off - since practically 50-75% of the the graduating class come out earning a 6 figure salary.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Touro Law Center
« on: May 12, 2005, 08:22:19 AM »

>>>Fordham Law is ranked #27 in the nation- its a Tier 1 school. It doesn't have the same prestige as NYU, Cornell or Columbia- but its certainly more than just a "decent regional school" in my opinion.

Brooklyn and Cardozo are ranked #58, Fordham is #27 (which is firmly within Tier 1)- and if you look at the stats for the entering classes, you'll see that Fordham's is several cuts above Brooklyn and Cardozo- which are both still great schools that both have the top quarter of their classes getting into BigLaw after graduation. Sure NYU grads can all get into BigLaw, but half of Fordham's class can, which is still pretty damn impressive.

Both Brooklyn and Cardozo are significantly better than Hofstra and St. John's. It and Hofstra are still not on the same level as Brooklyn or Cardozo. Only about the top 10% of Hofstra and St. John's could get into BigLaw, instead of the top 25% from Brooklyn and Cardozo.

SUNY Buffalo is a Tier 2 school- NYLS is either a Tier 3 or a Tier 4 school, I don't remember which, but I do remember that Buffalo is Tier 2.

Okay you are correct if you were to blindly rely only on the US News Rankings.

The way I wrote it is the way law firms and the NYC legal community overall views all schools based on an average of the school's quality from about 1996 to the Present.

Fordham is a solid regional school, and it is indeed Tier 1, however bottom of the class (50% and below) end up working at the SAME law firms as BLS and Cardozo grads. I should know because I had friends in that same boat (and guess what, they received interviews at small firms just like the rest of BLS/Cardozo people).

another misconception is the diference between Hofstra/SJU and BLS/Cardozo. I went to BLS and while I always thought BLS and Cardozo were leagues above Hofstra/SJU in terms of admissions, their local rep is still pretty solid. My law firm makes NO DISTINCTION between a Brooklyn grad and a Hofstra grad. Sad but true. You still need to be top 20% from all 4 schools to get a BIGLAW job.

The reason a BLS student ranked top 32% may end up at a big law firm whereas a Hofstra 2L ranked in the same 32% may not is due ot intangibles, like undergrad attended (BLS student may have gone to Williams College and written a paper about corporate governance or something). Also, BLS offers competitive clinics that are attractive to employers when listed on a resume. Hofstra has bad clinics in my opinion, esp for students who have no interest in civil litigation or public sector/criminal law work.

For ex: Brooklyn offers the Securities Arb clinic which gives students an advantage over similarly situated students at other local schools like Hofstra/SJU/NYLS and grades being EQUAL, an employer who handles Securities cases will prefer the Brooklyn student who participated in that clinic over a NYLS/Hof/SJU student who didn't have that opportunity because the school does not offer that particular clinic.

In that sense, then YES students at Brooklyn and Cardozo edge out the rest by a SMALL margin.

But when it comes to standard small and mid-sized firms that practice general commercial litigation, there IS NO difference. Ask any attorney at the Nassau County Supreme courthouse, Queens County or in Brooklyn, and they will all tell you,"I think NYU, Col and Fordham are top schools, but once you get into T2,T3 it doesnt matter *&^%."


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