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Messages - kilroy55

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51
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 03, 2007, 11:28:16 AM »
Also, how is the info. gathered?

NALP usually does surveys through career services offices of law schools, and firms themselves.  NALP is, as you know, pretty much the authority in this arena, along with the ABA. 

My point is that it is all self-reported essentially.  If law students don't pass on their info to their law school, then it never gets published by the NALP.  Take statistics with a grain of salt, especially in a field where some people make over a million dollars a year and some make under $35k a year.

It is silly to rely on published "samples."



I agree, unfortunately these statistics are used by firms when salary negotiations come into play.  Like it or not, most attorneys are not making enormous salaries.

52
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 03, 2007, 10:56:10 AM »
Also, how is the info. gathered?

NALP usually does surveys through career services offices of law schools, and firms themselves.  NALP is, as you know, pretty much the authority in this arena, along with the ABA. 

53
General Board / Re: What was your undergrad major?
« on: August 03, 2007, 10:40:40 AM »
Chemistry (B.S.) and History (B.A.)

54
General Board / Re: Law School after Graduate School?
« on: August 03, 2007, 10:09:39 AM »
Well I have no idea if it make it easier, but having left graduate school for law school I can tell you it puts a different perspective on things.  I was in graduate school for history.  Like all history programs, you read on average 1000-1500 pages a week for classes.  (Usually 3 to 4 classes with around 250 to 500 pages).  Anyway, I worked for a few years, went to graduate school then law school.  I was amazed at how all the kids out of undergrad were constantly freaking out over workload.  It is a lot of work, but after grad school it was nothing.  So while I am not sure it will help get you into a school, it will help you keep things in proper perspectice and cause you to laugh and smile at the fresh from undergrad students.

55
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 03, 2007, 09:59:47 AM »
Yeah. I saw that.    42% earning 55K or less.  That's just awful.

Not really.  You have to remember some of those people are federal government employees, judicial clerks and ADAs.  I personally hope to be getting a clerkship this coming year at the Federal Circuit Court level (major reach) or District Courts.  These positions don't pay all that well, but once you are done, many firms pay you very well (some with signing bonuses), and some firms give accrued time based on a federal clerkship.

56
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 03, 2007, 09:37:27 AM »
NALP just released stats from the class of 2006.  Here is the write up I have about:

"As reported, 90.7% of the members of the Class of 2006 for which employment status was known were employed as of February 15, 2007 a rate that topped 90% for the first time since 2000. The strong market did not, however, mean that every new graduate started work at a large firm at one of the much publicized $135,000 or $145,000 salaries. In fact, only 14% earned a $135,000 or $145,000 salary, while a far greater number of graduates, 42%, earned $55,000 or less. In addition, far more graduates started work in small firms of 50 or fewer lawyers or in non-firm settings (71% of those employed) than at firms of more than 100 lawyers (just 20% of those employed). Among the demographic findings reported in the press release was the fact that 46% of employed Black/African-American graduates took jobs in private practice, while about 58% of employed white graduates and 60% of employed Asian/Pacific Islander graduates did so."

57
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 03, 2007, 08:41:14 AM »
Ok. Perhaps my terminology is off.  I'm looking for 125K and it seems like a lot of the mid-law firms I have targeted do in fact pay that. 

Wow, show me these mid-size firms.  They may pay 125K, but I am willing to bet they pay this to real hot shots from the tops of classes.  In Philly and DC, I have heard of mid-size firms (around 25 to 100 attorneys) paying between 70 and 100K depending on experience, grades and standing etc...The average attorney in the US, based upon department of labor statistics, make 110K.  I have only heard of BIGLAW firms paying 125K for new associates. 

LA, OC, San Diego, B-more  all have mid firms that pay over 125K.   

Any mid-sized firm that pays over $125k is generally going to be a "boutique" firm and these firms are generally as selective, if not more so, than a big firm.

Also, a "big firm" is just that.  It is a law firm with 750+ attorneys nation-wide.

I think generally any "big firm" is one listed on the V100.  Not all of them have 750+.  I think most people generally regard "big firms" as having anywhere over 200+

58
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 02, 2007, 02:58:25 PM »
Ok. Perhaps my terminology is off.  I'm looking for 125K and it seems like a lot of the mid-law firms I have targeted do in fact pay that. 

Wow, show me these mid-size firms.  They may pay 125K, but I am willing to bet they pay this to real hot shots from the tops of classes.  In Philly and DC, I have heard of mid-size firms (around 25 to 100 attorneys) paying between 70 and 100K depending on experience, grades and standing etc...The average attorney in the US, based upon department of labor statistics, make 110K.  I have only heard of BIGLAW firms paying 125K for new associates. 

59
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 02, 2007, 02:16:28 PM »
Anybody have an idea of the liklihood of a midsized firm paying close to market? Or, is that just not possible?

What do you mean "close to market"?  What the average from you school is getting paid, or average based on size of firms in that area?  I can tell you, no mid-size is going to shell out 150K for a first-year associate who is in the middle of his class.

60
2L job search / Re: Hovering around the median. Is it really that bad?
« on: August 02, 2007, 11:35:13 AM »
Your right. It's pretty funny how the whole profession works.  There was an interesting article posted recently discussing how some firms are rethinking how they recruit strictly based on Grades/Rank. I belive it was because their retention rate was horrible.

You take someone ranked in the Top 10% that never has worked a day in their life and after a couple of years billing 2000 hours they head for ze hills.



Well the whole profession has problems with over work.  Some of the larger firms have decided to switch how they operate with billable hours and recruiting.  They discovered, to no ones shock, that they are actually more productive and make more money if attorneys have flexibility in schedule and the billable hours are reduced from 2K down to 1700.  The ABA has done a lot of research in this area, so have many academics.  When I was researching this past year, I found out that, on average, it costs in time and resources a major law firm between 500K to 1 million to train an associate.  It usually takes about 3 years before a major firms believes an associate is sufficiently trained, however, that associate will more than likely leave due to the hours and work load.  So many firms are changing strategies by reducing hours and allowing flexibility, and they discover that people are staying and are more loyal and willing to work.

But this is still an exception, and not a rule.  Most lawyers work between 40 and 50 hours a week, only a minority work longer than 50 hours a week.  (Despite what some people on this board will have you believe)

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