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Messages - Matthies
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« on: October 12, 2009, 04:28:06 PM »
And to say that, well, in practice most employers in other industries don't do this, so you shouldn't expect this from law firms -- the set of firms that participate in OCI recruiting have created expectations through a long history of certain behaviors. And this determines how applicants interpret what firms' behavior means, and then adjust their own behavior accordingly.
The fact that we are applying to them (and need jobs) . . . well, maybe this is the overall source of our disagreement. I am thankful in a sort of broad cosmic sense for having an offer, but I by no means see this as, like, a gift from the firm, for which I should be grateful to THEM. Because if I go there, they're going to make a shitload of money off of me -- arguably MOST of their money is from associate leverage, rather than high fees for partner expertise. Whatever benefits there are to any of us in going to a firm, the relationship works fundamentally in their favor, especially if you stay longer than a year or two. I think the same is true of the recruiting process -- interviewing us isn't doing any of us a favor, even if working at a firm will be beneficial to us as well for whatever reason. This whole process is ultimately a moneymaking enterprise for them, even if it requires spending money up front to fly us around, take time to talk to us, etc. To be clear, I'm not saying that on this point you guys are wrong and I am right. There certainly IS a lot of time and expense involved in recruiting and getting a new associate class to the point where they're profitable.
This is the thing that in the other thread I said comes off as elitist, even if your not trying to be. You just canít look at the past and expect anything like that to be the case NOW. If you understand the way legal hiring has worked over the last 15 years (OCI has not always been what it was, there is a relatively recent phenomena) then you understand that until last year it was a studentís market for the most part. Under the Cravath model firms needed brand name JDs to support their business model, it was all based on billing more for top talent so there was a race on from all firms supporting that billing model to grab as many graduates as they could from top law schools. It was studentís market and that is why we saw steady increases in salary each year and firms going so deep into schools classes.
Those days are gone, and they are not coming back. The Cravath model has crashed and burned for all but a few elite firms. Clients are no longer willing to pay top dolor to train new associates just because they have a barnd name degree. Law firms are losing money left and right on new associates in this ecomony, they can't bill like they used to for triaining. Thinking a firm in the ecocemny owes you anything like what it used to be comes from not understanding that there is a fundamental change in the way big firms work AND hire underway. Should be feel like you owe the firm something for hiring you? Hell yes is my view. They donít really need you, and for everyone they hire there are 100ís would give a testicul to be in your position.
The simple fact is its not 2007 and it never will be again. Expecting firms to act like it is, to bow to recruits timelines over there own struggles to keep afloat and thinking youíre more needed than you are, is just not understand how the new legal world is shaping up. Believe me Iím not saying you should be thanking god on your knees this firm said yes to you, but I am suggesting you start researching the changing legal market outside what your classmates are telling you. Knowing whatís coming and the value added side to legal work will make you more valuable then if you donít. Its not going back to the way it used to be, and thinking that firms should act like they did in 2007 now is just putting more pressure on yourself then you need. Itís a firms market and will be for awhile. They have all the cards, and if you want the job then you have to play by their rules, even if those rules seem like they are screwing with the rest of your life.
« on: October 12, 2009, 03:48:42 PM »
School will just have to find a way to get by without me tonight.
slacker. Did you get a snow brush yet?
« on: October 12, 2009, 03:47:25 PM »
In my very limited experience, I think some of the talk about how difficult Cooley is may be hyperbole. I worked hard last term, but compared to the horror stories I've heard from other students (12 hour days 6 days a week, etc) I really didn't feel overwhelmed. I think a lot of it had to do with the fact that I was lucky enough to speak to a lot of my friends that had been through law school as well as people on here, and had a fairly good idea of what the profs were looking for, which minimized my focus on unimportant details. Towards the end of the term, as you can see from my worry on here, I actually didn't really know what to do with myself; in retrospect, I think this is just because I was well prepared.
Regarding jobs, however, I'm still on the fence. When I talk to even local associates, they're still pretty tough on Cooley; I was told flatly by a couple girls from a large local firm this weekend that Cooley students were given cursory interviews to keep up a rapport, but the students never really stand a chance. I'm sure some of this is just haughtiness, but I can't imagine how awful it would be to graduate at the top of your class and still not have good prospects (of course that's not necessarily the case either, I know students graduating this year that already have jobs at large NY firms...but then there's a question of how much of that is connection based, etc). So who knows at this point. I'm just trying to get through my second term with minimal falloff right now.
After you get past this term I would recommend you start doing some local networking. Even if you donít want to stay local knowing people in the legal community can help, they went to law school with and know lawyers in other towns as well. Keep your grades up AND make connections and you will be ahead of the game come job search time.
« on: October 12, 2009, 01:17:18 PM »
I like it, I curoise to see how it goes. The only thing I don't like is " just graduated from a highly regarded college prep high school in St. Louis, MO" sounds too pretunious, just say grauted from a rigious high school or something. good start
« on: October 12, 2009, 12:06:24 PM »
That sucks to be so close and knowing you could have done it with accommodations.
yea, but it is what it is, allways been like that for me, just got to try harder than everyone else, I'm gearing up for me re-take now, gonna ace this thing in feb.
« on: October 12, 2009, 11:18:45 AM »
They are all really tough to get to tell the truth- generally much harder than NY/DC biglaw if you are not from DU/CU. The problem is they don't have large class sizes like firms in bigger markets. The fact that you are from Denver helps (in fact it is almost a prerequisite), but you are going to need some serious grades to seal the deal.
Definitely apply for a 1L clerkship (despite the fact that it's pretty much futile) for the reason of establishing your interest.
As for starting salaries. The 160k firms are only going to hire 1-2 a year, if that. The firms with a big Denver presence (Holland & Hart, Fagre, Shearman & Howard) will have larger class sizes, and are therefore a more reasonable goal.
Pretty much agree with Nelric here, 120k is normal big law in Denver. Join the Co bar assoication is free for studnets and the weekly newsletter does a good job of letting you know what going on in the Denver market. Play up your Denver contacts, its a very insular market and they really do prefer local grads becuase CO is so tranistnt
« on: October 12, 2009, 11:15:11 AM »
that's really sad, sorry you had to go through that.
« on: October 12, 2009, 11:05:17 AM »
got my scores back, was within 11 points of passing, since I ran out of time with 9 questions left on the MBE and 1 essay left on the MEE its pretty clear I would have apssed if I got accomidations. Hoipefully I can get them for feb.
« on: October 09, 2009, 01:53:36 PM »
I second Chuck's advice on fighting for accomodations.
Your situation seemed absolutely unacceptable.
Yea Iím going to fight hard for accommodations again, Iím contacting a professor at my school who is a specialist in writing disorders, I hope he can help me. The standard WAIS III does not address writing disorders like mine. The report from the bar said I read fine so there was no reason for any extra time. WFT anyone who knows me here knows my problem is with writing not reading, if the test was not Ĺ writing I would be fine.
They did not even address my writing disability, they simply said you read fine so youíre denied. They let everybody with ADD (which I also have) have between 25-50% more time on the entire test, except me. I just want enough time to spell check my writing and get what I have to say written on the essay portion. Its very frustrating. I donít want any advantage I just want a shot at competing with normal people who donít have to work so hard just to get something written on a piece of paper so its readable.
« on: October 09, 2009, 12:41:37 PM »
The fact that it just happened is going to be your biggest hurdel, I had 2 DUIs but there were sevral years before I applied. You can ither apply now and see what happens, or take anouther year off and get involved in a program, the past boze violations plus a recnet DUI are going to sya to an adcom you might have a drinking problem. See if you can quit for a year and get into some program and give back to the community and reaplly next year would be what i would do.
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