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Messages - WhiteyEMSR

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81
Where should I go next fall? / Re: t3/t4 chances
« on: November 08, 2006, 02:19:24 PM »
Yes, you lose your ranking and your GPA. Some schools, mostly lower tiered, will allow you to be eligible for law review if you made the journal at your transferor school.

82
Where should I go next fall? / Re: t3/t4 chances
« on: November 07, 2006, 11:48:29 PM »
You should keep in mind that transferring is a viable option. Many people on this board say you need to be in top 10% or so to transfer up. I'm not sure this is the case across the board. I transferred from UDM to Notre Dame. There are other transfers here from tier 4 schools (one from Michigan State) that have around 3.1-3.4 GPAs. This seems relatively low considering ND is a top 25 school.

I think if you got the 1st year out of the way at a tier 3 school, ended up in around the top 25%, maybe even lower, you could at least transfer up to a tier 3 school, if that is your goal now. I'm not sure the differences in job opportunities btwn a tier 3 school and a tier 4 school, but if this is what you want, I think you would have a good chance after completing your 1st year. UDM had students, some outside of the top 20% definitely, transfer to Michigan, Notre Dame, Loyola Chicago, Syracuse, Depaul, hmmm, semms like there are more, but I can't think of them.

Anyway, taking a year off and hoping to get a better lsat score might not be as productive as getting the 1st year of hell out of the way and then transferring up. Of course you always run the risk of doing bad in your first year. As far as lsat predicting success, it didn't for me. I scored a 147 on the lsat and finished 2nd in my class.

Good luck.

EMSR

PS- Ave Maia LS is moving to Florida (probably). Tom Monoghan is convinced it is a good idea. Not too sure that it is. I think it runs the risk of losing accreditation if a lot of the professors/students don't decide to go along. Anyway, just a thought.

83
Reviews, Visits, and Rankings / Re: Which T4 Schools are on the Cusp of T3?
« on: November 07, 2006, 08:40:23 PM »
Just a couple of things.

I transferred from Detroit Mercy. Many students I know did not do well during the most recent OCI, smart students, law review, etc. There are two transfers at my current school from Ave Maria and one from Michigan State, and they say the same things regarding the scarcity of offers. I would definitely stay away from Ave Maria. Monaghan (I think I spelled that correctly) runs AM like a sole proprietorship and is moving the school to Florida. Keeping accreditation will be a problem if faculty won't move. Michigan has 6 law schools. There is not a huge demand for attorneys.

Next, speaking with older attorneys doesn't mean a heck of a lot. Speak with recent graudates. The market was a lot different ten, even five years ago. Making a lateral move after a few years will make your school a bit less important on your resume, but a more recognized school will carry you much farther. As to large law firms, they usually hire laterals from other top law firms.

One more thing. Keep in mind the importance of OCI, especially if you want to work for a firm. Don't only rely on what firms come to your school but find out who the firms are hiring. UDM and State bring in all the top MI firms (Dykema, Dickinson, Honigman, Butzel, Bodman, etc.), but not all of these will take sudents from these lower tiered schools.

Actually one more thing. Take eveything you hear on this board with a huge grain of salt. I think your best bet would be to talk with students who currently went through the OCI process at the schools you are considering. Stop them in the hallways when you visit and ask them. Look out for yourself. Don't listen to Joe Schmo who "knows tons of attorneys that went to Cooley and work for Skadden."

I feel like an a-hole, but I hope this was helpful.

Please, ask questions.

EMSR

84
Where should I go next fall? / Re: t3/t4 chances
« on: November 07, 2006, 08:17:54 PM »
Thought I'd repost this as I saw Detroit Mercy mentioned.

I attended the University of Detroit Mercy for my first year of law school. I transferred for my second year, and I'm very happy I did. Working hard and getting good grades is definitely important, but it is MUCH more important if you are planning on attending a tier 4 school.

First of all, not nearly as many firms interview at tier 4 schools as they do at higher tier schools. Look up Detroit Mercy on nalpdirectory.com and then look up any tier 1 or tier 2 school. UDM brings in around 20 firms I think. The firm I accepted an offer with only has two attorneys from UDM (out of 2200 lawyers), and these two are partners that are long standing at the firm.

Secondly, you must be at the top of your class to even be considered by law firms. I don't care if they have 20 lawyers or 2200 lawyers. Grades are an objective was of showing qualification. By top of the class I mean TOP to even get interviews. Many firms limit the people they will even consider for initial interviews to top 10-20%. I have many friends still at UDM that can't get jobs that did very well their first year, some on law reveiw, some on moot court and some on both.

Thirdly, keep in mind that the easiest and most efficient way of getting firm jobs (I understand not everyone wants to do the law firm thing, but with 100,000 in debr many of us don't have the option) is through the OCI (on campus interview process) your 2L year. Talk to the CSO at the schools you are considering, see what firms interveiw there, who they hire, how many they hire, etc. Talk with students that go to these schools! When you are visiting stop them in the hallways. Ask questions, preferablt not only from administration as they will try to deceive you. Nalpdirectory.com is helpful.

Law school is a huge investment. Many students do not get jobs. People on this board say "Work hard, pass the bar, and you'r sure to get a job. It doesn't matter what school you go to." I disagree with these statements. It makes all the difference in the world. Protect yourselves by asking questions of everyone you can. What I say is especially true with regard to firm jobs. 

I'm sorry to be harsh, but I see many of my friends, very smart people, very frustrated about their job situations. The OCI season is over, and the vast majority of them have no jobs lined up for the summer. I used to speak very highly of UDM, but with hindsight I see that many things that the administration told me were not true. Keep in mind what I am saying is only from what I have heard regarding UDM and other schools that students transferred from to my current school. Also, I was only concerned with law firms, not govt, public interest, etc. But, if you want to do these things, check on your schools' loan forgiveness programs, scholarships, etc.

Good Luck. PM me with any questions. EMSR

85
Where should I go next fall? / Re: T4's Woith Attending???
« on: November 07, 2006, 08:16:13 PM »
I attended the University of Detroit Mercy for my first year of law school. I transferred for my second year, and I'm very happy I did. Working hard and getting good grades is definitely important, but it is MUCH more important if you are planning on attending a tier 4 school.

First of all, not nearly as many firms interview at tier 4 schools as they do at higher tier schools. Look up Detroit Mercy on nalpdirectory.com and then look up any tier 1 or tier 2 school. UDM brings in around 20 firms I think. The firm I accepted an offer with only has two attorneys from UDM (out of 2200 lawyers), and these two are partners that are long standing at the firm.

Secondly, you must be at the top of your class to even be considered by law firms. I don't care if they have 20 lawyers or 2200 lawyers. Grades are an objective was of showing qualification. By top of the class I mean TOP to even get interviews. Many firms limit the people they will even consider for initial interviews to top 10-20%. I have many friends still at UDM that can't get jobs that did very well their first year, some on law reveiw, some on moot court and some on both.

Thirdly, keep in mind that the easiest and most efficient way of getting firm jobs (I understand not everyone wants to do the law firm thing, but with 100,000 in debr many of us don't have the option) is through the OCI (on campus interview process) your 2L year. Talk to the CSO at the schools you are considering, see what firms interveiw there, who they hire, how many they hire, etc. Talk with students that go to these schools! When you are visiting stop them in the hallways. Ask questions, preferablt not only from administration as they will try to deceive you. Nalpdirectory.com is helpful.

Law school is a huge investment. Many students do not get jobs. People on this board say "Work hard, pass the bar, and you'r sure to get a job. It doesn't matter what school you go to." I disagree with these statements. It makes all the difference in the world. Protect yourselves by asking questions of everyone you can. What I say is especially true with regard to firm jobs. 

I'm sorry to be harsh, but I see many of my friends, very smart people, very frustrated about their job situations. The OCI season is over, and the vast majority of them have no jobs lined up for the summer. I used to speak very highly of UDM, but with hindsight I see that many things that the administration told me were not true. Keep in mind what I am saying is only from what I have heard regarding UDM and other schools that students transferred from to my current school. Also, I was only concerned with law firms, not govt, public interest, etc. But, if you want to do these things, check on your schools' loan forgiveness programs, scholarships, etc.

Good Luck. PM me with any questions. EMSR

86
Where should I go next fall? / Re: IU-B vs Case....Wayne?
« on: October 17, 2006, 08:50:02 PM »
I know this is an old posting, but I wanted ot offer my two cents for anyone doing a search regarding the OP's original topic. Salary information gets debated constantly in these forums by students who are usually not very informed on the subject. Looking at "average salary charts" created by various outside organizations will not give you an accurate reading of what most students are making. The majority of employment with mid-big law firms is met through the OCI process, which is mostly restricted to bigger law firms, firms that can predict what position they will be in with regard to hiring two years ahead of time. Samller law firms, maybe looking for 1-2 associates out of all the MI schools, are much fewer and farther between. The firms in the Michigan market are usually looking to hire about 4-7 students on average from a number of different schools. The best way to research salary statistics is to look at the NALP forms and see what the bigger law firms are paying, how many summer associates they are taking, what their grade/journal requirements are, and what schools they recruit from.

Personally, I think that to say the average Wayne grad makes 70,000-80,000 a yr upon graduation is ridiculous and simply not true. To get recruited by a firm that pays this amount of money is not easy. First of all, even the biggest Michigan firms only take between 4-7 summer associates each year. These firms start at 90,000 (Butzel Long) and pay as much as 125,000 (Honigman Miller). Firms like Dykema start at 105,000 however they pay their summer associates significantly less. To secure these postions you need TERRIFIC grades and probably journal experience. Of course, once you pass the paper test, it becomes more about personality, etc, but the only things that will get you interviews or call-backs (depending if your school's OCI process operates by a lottery system or has firms screen their applicants) is your academic record. For the firms that pay less than the numbers above you still need great grades, and keep in mind that these firms take SIGNIFICANTLY fewer summer associates due to the fact that their numbers are fewer and hiring capability not as great.

Second of all, the summer associates that these firms are taking are not all from Michigan schools, even mostly from Michigan schools. I can give you a personal example. I did my first year at Detroit Mercy and transferred to Notre Dame. At Notre Dame I got call-backs from ALL the Detroit firms. Pretty much everyone whom I have talked to interviewing in MI from ND has gotten callbacks from at least a couple of MI firms. The friends that I have at UDM are not even getting initial interviews with these firms. I can assure you that the case is similar with Wayne. With firms taking so few associates each year, why would they not interveiw only the top students? Why not top schools? To even get considered for these top firms you need sweet academic credentials. I have been through this process and have seen others go through it. Check the attorneys profiles at the firms you are looking at in Michigan. Look at the Wayne grads they are hiring. They will all have some academic credential after their name. Many will have law review, which is restricted to the top 10 students and some write ons. 

Thirdly, consider law firms outside of the Michigan market. Dykema, Honigman, Dickinson, Butzel, Bodman, etc, are not national firms, although they do have small offices in other states. These firms are the biggest firms, for the most part, you will find interviewing at UDM and Wayne. Consider firms like Skadden, Jones Day, Kirkland, Sidley etc, firms with many more attorneys that offer employment at a national or international level. These firms will not interview at schools like UDM and Wayne. Check their websites. See where their attorneys are from. The firm I will be wroking for this summer has no grads from UDM and one partner from Wayne. This is out of over 2000 attorneys. I have seen IUB's name on the firm's profiles (again check nalpdirectory.com). I have not seen Wayne or UDM. This was a huge reason for tranferring from UDM. I also wanted to keep my options open in Michigan, and I was accepted to Wayne, but I did my own research and came to the conclusion that I was in a more marketable position at ND for Michigan firms. And, as I said, I got callbacks from every MI firm I interviewed with. 

Anyway, I don't mean to be harsh. Getting a job paying over 50,000 coming from a lower tiered school is not easy. Be realistic. It sucks, but firms care VERY MUCH about stellar grades and stellar schools. UDM boasts a 90% employment placement rate and a 55,000 salary average, but this is NOT true from the students I have seen graduate this school and my friends that have just got through the OCI process with no luck. Many students are frustrated. Ask students where they are working the summer of their 2L year, and see what they say. Many travel with abroad programs. Very few will list the big firms stated above. Contrary to popular belief, there is not much difference between a tier 4 like UDM and a tier 3 like Wayne when it comes to interviewing at big firms. Sure Wayne probably does better on average, but it is still HIGHLY competitive. If you think you are assured a 70,000 job coming out of Wayne just because of the school's name you are dreaming.

Stop looking at independent studies and numbers posted by the school, and do your own research. Good luck to you all.

 

87
Last year was the first year ND took more than 1 or 2 transfer students. I think they took 14. This year I believe they took 16, and you would be surprised at the differences in transfer schools, GPAs, etc. Some tier 4 transfers, some tier 1s. Some were top of their class, some only slightly above 3.0. Many of the transfer students did very well during OCI.

I love ND. The professors are very impressive, the course selection amazing and the campus is spectacular. It also doesn't hurt that so many huge firms recruit heavily from ND. They also have a stong public interest program, so don't think that BigLaw is be all end all. 

88
Where should I go next fall? / Update
« on: September 27, 2006, 01:28:24 PM »
In response to an earlier post, I would say that the top 25% of a tier 4 has a very good chacne of transferring up in the rankings. How much in the rankings, I don't know.

As an update, after interviewing in the OCI process at Notre Dame, I received many call backs. In Michigan Butzel called me back, Dykema, Dickinson, were the biggest, and I have yet to hear from a couple. Also had luck with Indianapolis. I recently accepted an offer for a summer with a top international law firm. They were my top choice, the people were wonderful, and I am happy with my decision to transfer.

My points-
1. Losing law review when transferring is not be all end all
2. Same with moot court
3. Top of class at tier 4 will still not get you interviews with many top law firms, but this tends to be because top law firms, sometimes, don't come to tier 4 schools. I know, I know, someone will respond saying that Skadden is interviewing at their tier 4 school, but go to that firm's website and do an attorney search by law school. See what you find.

89
First off, I'm just jealous that you get to go to Notre Dame. *sigh*...trying to be happy where I'm at...

Moving on...

You seemed to have made the best decision for you and that's awesome. However, I feel compelled to mention that making law review is a huge accomplishment and people who accomplish this at a lower ranked school should not feel that tranferring is their only option. being a big fish in a small pond can be really helpful



Absolutely. It was a very hard decision to make. Giving up law review was something I was not willing to do at first, even with an acceptacnce from ND. I probably would have stayed had the dean offered me more than 25% scholarship, which I lost when I refused to committ due to the fact I had not heard form any transfer schools. 

90
Hi Guys, just though I'd share my story as it might help some people out who are considering tranferring after thier first year. First and foremost of course, you have to do close to exceptionally well to be a contender at one of the higher ranking schools, but it is possible. I chose a school, the Unversity of Detroit Mercy because I saw a dean who was willing to work for his students. The dean has an advisory board that meets twice a year and is make up of partners from THE law firms. They speak about this and that and are able to get certain things accomplished that help the student body. Plus, I had nowhere else to go. Wayne dinged me, Michigan State dinged me, Ave Maria dinged me, Cooley accepted me, yay. Got a chance for an interview at Ohio Northern, but turned them down.

Like everyonther person in the class I knew my place belonged at the top. I worked hard as midterms and ended up first in the class. I took the finals and ended up 2/163, 3.7, graded onto law review. So now I'm a big fish in a small pond, but why not apply to a bigger pond?

I applied to Michigan, Notre Dame, University of Illinois, Indiana Bloomington, Loyola Chicago, and USF. USF, the lowest ranking school I applied to did not accept me. Indiana Bloomington sent me a letter saying there is no room in the 2nd class and everyone gets their money back. I was also denied at Michigan, my top choice (say they usully take top 3 students, but apparently not this time.

Success, I was accepted into Wayne, a school that I would have loved to go to as a first year. But with my ranking and law review at UDM, I was happy staying at UDM when compared with Wayne, where I would lose those credntial from UDM and not have them at Wayne. As to Univ of Illinois, it is a great school, but it was a bit farther away than I tended to want to drive. I love my girlfriend enough so that I have to see her at least 3 times a week. Loyola Chicago was an option as they accepted me to but it meant kind of a long move. Notre Dame, top 20 school, top notch faculty, football games,etc. told me to go.

So, this fall I am transferring from the University of Detroit Mercy School of Law (Tier 4) to Notre Dame School of Law (Tier 1). It was a hard decicion to make but one I don't think I'll regret. And it is possible.

I also say a girl with a 3.4 get transferred into Loyola Chicago, a girl got into DePaul and John Marshall as a transfer, a girl got into Syracuse but then decided to attend Buffalo Law School. One studet, bastard, supposedly did get into MI, but I have yet to confirm this. Just thought I'd share some personal experiences so you don't have to rely soley on law students that have not attended law school.

EMSR

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