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Messages - WhiteyEMSR

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I'll post a "Notre Dame 2l Posting Questions" thread.

I'm a Notre Dame student. Students get jobs everywhere. I'm a transfer student, so I really only know the transfer students, but I think we all have jobs, many BigLaw. The firms (off the top of my head) where transfers are going are Jones Day, Sidley Austin (Chi), Ice Miller (Indy), Dickinson Wright (MI), 2 at NY firms (don't remember the firm names), 1 other Indy firm, a couple more Chicago (huge placement).

Firms come from all over the place. I only interviewed in the midwest and got a lot of callback offers. I know people routinely go to the major Californian cities, New York, Chicago, and Indy. In the midwest, you definitely can't go wrong.

South Bend? Yeah...nobody stays in South Bend.

Law School Admissions / Re: MSU vs Wayne vs UofD
« on: February 21, 2007, 09:59:33 PM »
No, you're wrong. Did you read his letter? It has nothing to do with the move, there was another reason that he took a position elsewhere, he wanted more diversity.

Why do you think you can read any random stuff from some blog that hates the school to begin with and spread things that aren't always true?

Dude, are you kidding me? He outright condemns the move to Florida. Read the article!!! Also, the Board of Directors unanimously opposes this move as the Board believes it is NOT in the best interests of the law school. Tom has already opened and closed a number of schools. His reputation is beyond repair. Check this out.

I remember you from a prior post when I tried to warn you against the school because of the move and you said the move wasn't going to happen. We'll see what happens, but I recommend you do well this year and get the heck out. A couple of my buddies transferred this fall and the are SOOO glad they did!

Law School Admissions / Re: MSU vs Wayne vs UofD
« on: February 21, 2007, 01:01:17 PM »
I want to add one more thing with regard to scholarships. I would say that scholarships, while important, should not be considered a deciding factor if you are choosing between schools that have disparate reputations. I think disparity between schools within the same tier can even be enough to turn down a full-ride over a no-ride. This is especially true if you want to work at a law firm. Three years of paying full tuition is not that bad if you have a good chance of getting a good firm job upon completion of law school. On the other hand, having no job sucks regardless of debt.

Look at which firms interview at what schools, and look at their cut-offs for interviewing. Most firms coming to schools with "poor" reputations have strict standards for getting an initial interview. These standards are somewhat relaxed the more you move up the tier system (generally speaking). Also, try to find out the whos, whats, wheres regarding where students are working and more importantly, where those students are ranked in their class. When I went to UDM's various introductory events, they harped on success stories of students who worked at Shearman & Sterling and at Dykema type firms, but these students were all law review grade ons. Only ten people grade onto law review, at least at UDM. The career services offices are valuable sources of information. Make them tell you where students are working. Get these students' names (if you can) and talk to them. Talk to students in general and see what they have set up for their 2nd summers (this is the crucial summer in most cases). You will find that many current 2ls at UDM are doing study abroad programs because they didn't get summer associate offers.

My main point---Look ahead, beyond scholarships.

As for positives on UDM (there are many I have ignored), the clinics are great, professors are excellent and public interest jobs are definitely available. 

Law School Admissions / Re: MSU vs Wayne vs UofD
« on: February 21, 2007, 12:27:25 PM »
Hey, former UDM student here. I transferred after my first year. If you want to work in a law firm and you choices are between the MI schools (leaving out UM) go to Wayne! The firm opps are still going to be reserved for the top students and law review members, but chances are higher at Wayne as the firms interview more students and more firms show up. Many of my friends from UDM can't find jobs outside of public interest, and the ones that have found jobs are all top students or on law review. Having both is probably a must at UDM although I do have one friend that wrote onto law review with a 3.1 gpa and got an offer at a small firm, but this is rare.

Ave Maria just announced yesterday that they are moving to Florida. This is no longer up in the air. It is a sure thing. I have a couple friends who transferred from Ave, and they are very glad they left. No alumni base, no reputation (yet), Dean is hated and profs are resigning after the Florida announcement.

As to State, people will always tell you that it will jump in the rankings in the next couple of years, but these predictions are made on these boards year after year and the jump never happens. In fact State did make it to tier 3 either last year or the year before and it is now back to 4. I have been watching these rankings and hearing the same speculation for years. I imagine, though, that job prospects are better out of State than out of UDM.

How does the fact that so few AM grads took the bar show that the school is national? Ave Maria is NOT a national law school by any stretch of the imagination. They have been accredited for what, two years? Go and ask 2ls at AM where they are working this summer. You will find that most of them aren't. Like I said before, I live with a guy who was top of his class at Ave. Before he decided to transfer, he sent out like 100 resumes to law firms (seeing as Butzel Long is the only firm that interviews on campus...hmmm, could this be because of Tom's connections with the firm?), and he got no initial interviews from this process. Not one.

My point is this. Anytime a school is considering a move across the country, be skeptical. Anytime faculty votes to kick out a dean, ask questions. Anytime a firm brings one firm to campus, reflect on how "national" this school can be. When a school is first accredited by the ABA, don't believe that the school is going to jump to a tier 2 in 3 years. Do you honestly believe that with all of the problems the school is having?

As to the bar rates, I have no idea why the scores are so high. It's crazy and will probably result in much harder exams in the future. Cooley at 80%? For @#!*'s sake, get out of Michigan!

Can you direct me to the exact site? I can't find where bar passage rates are listed by school for this time around. I would like to see how Detroit Mercy grads did. I heard that the rate went down a lot but haven't confirmed. Thanks.

Are you going to Ave Maria? If you are, did they not tell you about the Florida move? I think that's crazy if they didn't. My roommate (former AM student) can't stop talking about how crazy Tom is. Also, I guess the faculty tried to get the board of directors to get rid of the dean, but they refused. I think it's rough times for Ave.

Well, AveMaria is doing great actually. As far as the comment about too much religion in the classrooms that is just not true at all. Have you ever observed a class there? If not, then aren't you just assuming (we all know what happens when you just assume things)>
AveMaria came in first again in the state of MI bar exams, and uofM came in third I believe. (just a comment) AveMaria is not moving to FL, where did you get your info?

Another thing, I have heard also about AveMaria moving to T2, anyone else?

I get most of my information from two former Ave Maria students that have tranferred to Notre Dame this year, one is my roommate. I can give you his email if you like. Also, you could have googled "Tom Monaghan" and florida in the time it took you to write that message and you would have got many hits. Here is one
Another is here
You will see AM's board "unanimously approved" the move. Where do you get your information?
One more
One more, really

I believe there is no chance that Ave Maria could move to tier 2 after being accredited for a short period of time, having no alumni base and considering the move to Florida. As you can glean from the article, many professors are unhappy with the move to Florida as are students. Nobody can adequately predict what the rankings will do anyway. Again, where do you get your information? I'm curious to see where you got info on the most recent bar passage rate. I know Ave was strong in 2004, but I also know very few people took the bar and only 37% were employed at graudation. I can show you this infor too if you like.


It's not that I think they are bad schools. In fact, I think they are excellent schools. I speak mostly for UDM, and the faculty is stellar, and I really think Dean Gordon is doing something to improve the reputation of the school, although I disagree with some of his policies.

The fact is that regardless of the quality of education, USNWR really screws things up, and schools like the ones you mention get the raw end of the deal. Top firms want lawyers from top schools; there really is no way around it. The fact remains that to get a firm job coming out of any school in Michigan besides UM is extremely competitive. Even at UM to get a job at a top Vault firm you need close to excellent grades.

Sure top MI firms come to the schools you mention. Dykema, Dickinson, Honigman, Butzel, etc. all interview at these schools, but they only take the very top students. Getting a job with a small to midsize firm can be just as competitive.

I think that chances at Wayne State are probably better than the other MI schools because Wayne brings more law firms to campus. Also, they MIGHT go a BIT deeper into the class. You will still need to be in the top 10-20% to get an interview and probably in the top ten people overall to get a callback. is a great resource. You can search by law school and see what firms come to campus. Not every firm will be listed, bu the big ones will be. You can see that firms like Dykema, for example, might take 6 or 7 students for a summer after interviewing at a *&^%-load of schools. You might think MI schools get preference, but I don't think that is the case. I may have already mentioned this, but none of my friends that remained at UDM have secured positions through OCI. All of the students I know at Notre Dame who interviewed with all the MI firms got at least a couple of callbacks. I got them from Dykema, Dickinson, Butzel and Thrun Law Firm. Another transfer student (from MSU) got an offer with Dickinson Wright and another (Ave Maria) with Butzel Long. They also don't know very many people at their old schools who are having luck with law firms.

Reputation of school means a lot, much more than it should in my opinion. I think USNWR sucks for doing what they have done to some very smart students. I have a couple good friends at UDM that are thinking of doing study abroad programs this summer because they can't get callbacks. These are smart people, law review and moot court, which are extremely challenging to do at the same time.

Anyway, I am rambling. My point, if you want to work for a law firm, you better get good grades if you are going to a lower ranked school in Michigan. Firms have a lot of smart students to choose from and very few spots to fill.


Choosing the Right Law School / Re: t3/t4 chances
« on: November 08, 2006, 02:13:32 PM »
So, is there no way to work your way back up to the to 10-20%?  That was my question - because, what's the point of transferring up if you are delegated to the bottom half of your class no matter what you do.

Am I being clear?


Ahhh, sorry, I misunderstood your question.

I'm not sure why you say that one would be delegated to the bottom half of the class. Just because you transfer schools doesn't mean you have a GPA of 3.1 or below (which would be bottom half at my current school). You simply start over as if you were a first year, I suppose.

As I said above, the most important process you will go through in LS if you hope to get a BigLaw job is the OCI (on campus interveiw) process. When a tranfer student interviews the fall of their 2nd year with law firms, the tranfer student uses his/her credentials from the first year law school. For example, while I may not have had an established GPA at Notre Dame, I still had a 3.7 and a ranking of 2/163 from my first year at Detroit Mercy. These are the grades that employers saw and these will never change.

Many firms have requirements/recommendations, such as "top 25% required, journal preferred, moot court preferred." This is a common one, and I was allowed to use my first year grades/journal/moot court recognition in spite of the fact that I was interviewing at ND where I technically had no journal experience, no moot court and no GPA.

Employers really liked transfer students this year and all that I can think of got offers. It does kind of suck that I need to do really well this semester to get an established GPA at ND, but it doesn't matter that much as I already have a job offer.

Hope this helps a bit more,

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