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Messages - WhiteyEMSR

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Black Law Students / Re: Life As An Associate
« on: March 12, 2008, 08:00:38 AM »
Couple questions guys. My firm (Vault 50, major market) gives me standard vacation time each year. How likely will I be able to take it? Do chances of being able to use vacation time go up or down after the 1st year? Thanks.

Studying for the LSAT / Re: It's time to predict your score....
« on: December 20, 2007, 11:54:38 AM »
How do you guys know that today's the day? When I took the lsat 100 years ago, we were only told around three weeks. Good luck to you all!

Black Law Students / Re: Life As An Associate
« on: November 27, 2007, 03:44:37 PM »
yeah def its weird to realize that our starting salaries no matter how much debt will be ridiculous. i made 100kish last year and always had spare cash even with bills etc. i can't image adding an extra 60k to that. its ridiculous some people's whole salary isn't even 60k.  most of us even w/o investments will make more money than most people will ever see in their lives....

Son if you made 100k you already won!  Whatchu need law school for?  Quit now while you're ahead!  LOL

If you're in it for the money.

True that. 

I guess I was moreso thinking of the not going into debt part.

I read an article in the National Jurist the other day about how new associates are struggling financially in spite of the market salaries because of school loans and the high cost of living in the major markets. The article stated that in NY, after "state and federal taxes as well as a sizable city wage," associates' salaries are cut by 50%. The article tacked on loan payments and other costs of living to this number and said many students end up in the negative each month.

But when I do the math taking into account taxes, loan payments and bills in my future firm's city, it still seems like I have quite a bit of money left over. I realize there are unforeseeable expenses, but it still doesn't seem that I'll be struggling by any means. So, what's it like guys? Are you stretched financially at all? Are loans, taxes, rent, etc. really that big of a burden? Is there money left to spend/invest?

can anyone lead me to a profits per partner chart?

Black Law Students / Re: Life As An Associate
« on: November 12, 2007, 12:51:35 PM »
From a friend working at at NYC law firm, I've been told that billable hours for a first year typically is only 2/3s of the hours you actually work. Don't know how accurate that is for you, but it would make a big difference.

Something like that.

If your lunch/break times stay constant then the billable % increases the longer you stay at work (assuming you are working on a client matter).

Although I'm still getting into my rhythm I'm finding that so far I'll stay at work for about 9 or 10 hours on average, and bill about 8 of those let's say 10 hours.  I've never billed lower than 7 hours so far, and I think the most I've billed so far is 11.3 hours.  Obviously on my 11+ billable days I'm at the office for over 12 hours, but (thank God) those days have been few and far between.

For all of you listing the hours you work/bill, what type of firms are you at in terms of size, Vault ranking, city, etc. How much difference does the Vault ranking make in terms of how may hours attorneys are required to bill? Just trying to figure out what I signed up for, although I got a decent idea from my summer (although I felt a bit sheltered). Thanks.

Man, just reread my post. I'm a prick. My bad. Seriously.

You said there were at least as many Wayne State grads as UM grads at Detroit firms. You WERE wrong. You then said that most of the grads at UM and Wayne would "tell you you are an idiot for paying twice as much tuition to get the same job." You ARE wrong here as well, unless you're talking to jackasses, which wouldn't surprise me.

And, shut up with your "representative sample" bull. I said that the top 10-20% do not get paid the same, and as an example I used the fact that the top students (the ones who have the best chance of getting jobs) are even sometimes left unemployed. And, yes, I know MANY people outside of this "representative sample" that do not have jobs. A lot of people are frustrated. And Geoff is ONE person--I'm talking about many. We have transfers from Wayne, UDM, and Ave, and they all left because nobody was getting jobs. I was right at the top of my class, with law review, moot court and a scholarship, and I was worried about not getting a job. I know better than you because I know people at these schools, I know A LOT more people at Detroit law firms than you do, I've been to a TTT, I've transferred to a T1, and I'm not an ignorant 0L. If you're hiring partner said what you say he did, then he's giving false info too.

And why would you "walk around the law firm" to see where people went to school when it's much easier and sufficient to check the website? Are you that stupid? Or is that statement some kind of plug to let us all know that you work for a firm? And even if you did walk around the firm, you'd still find out that you're wrong.

A thousand pardons, I didn't mean to offend you teh Julie Fern.  I mistakenly thought that this was blatant flame.  Seriously, who the hell asks whether or not any of these schools are good?  If someone is at the point where these are their only options, at best their only job prospects after graduating will be in small HAVEYOUBEENINJUREDINANACCIDEN TLAW. Save your money and work as a paralegal (if you MUST work in a legal profession), at least then you won't be mired in a heap of debt that you won't be able to pay off.

Obviously you don't know a thing about the Detroit market.   There are at least as many Wayne State grads at the top Michigan firms as there are Michigan grads, and most of them will tell you that you are an idiot for paying twice as much tuition to get the same job.  The hiring partners I have spoken to always say to go to the best school you can get into (which means pay the money and go to Michigan if you can), but the top 10-20% at any of those schools will be making the same as any Michigan grad.  All three are good schools, especially if you are staying in Michigan.  Wayne State is the best after Michigan, but Michigan State is rising.  UD Mercy is a good school, but it clearly trailing the other two. 

Obviously you don't know anything about the Detroit market. I got callbacks from many Detroit firms and researched all of them to death, but it doesn't take a genius to look through the attorney profiles section of the law firms' websites to to see where the attorneys went to school. There are FAR many more UM grads than Wayne grads. I'll make it easy on you--go to Dykema's website (I'm assuming you know the firm as you have talked to so many hiring partners)--you can search by school.

And NOBODY that knows anything about Michigan law firms or Michigan law schools will call someone an idiot for choosing UM over Wayne. In fact, if you were accepted to both schools, you would be a f-ing moron to choose Wayne.

And, the top 10%-20% of students from "any of those schools" are not making the same as any Michigan grad. I did my first year of law school at "one of those schools," and there are people at the top of the class with law review that don't find jobs through OCI. The top 10%-20% (and beyond) of Michigan grads get Vault jobs. "Any of those schools" send VERY FEW grads to Vault firms.

Sorry to own you so badly, but I hate it when people give false advice on these boards.

I did my first year of law school at UDM. The very top students can get jobs at big firms. I know there were a couple at Shearman, one at Jenner, one or two at Mayer Brown, and a few students get jobs at the local big firms( Dykema, Miller, Honigman, etc.). The firms that come to OCI probably rarely interview anyone outside of the top 20%, and to have even a reasonable chance, especially at a Vault firm, you're going to need to be in the top 10%, perhaps even the top ten people. And, you better have law review. Dean Gordon is doing good things for the school, and the professors are great.

I honestly don't think things are a whole lot better at Wayne. Firms are still going to be really choosey. Maybe they'll dip a bit deeper into the class, but not much.

If you want to do public interest work, then UDM will give you options. I transferred because I wanted to be assured a job at a big firm.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Long-distance relationship during law school
« on: March 02, 2007, 08:57:56 AM »
It's all about how you prioritize your time. Yes, the first year of law school is demanding, but studying is something you can do just about anywhere. If you want it to work, you can make it work. Like I said, I see my girlfriend every week, we like over 3.5 hours away, I have plenty of time to study, and I get good grades.

I'm not sure if these things have been addressed yet (I didn't read all of the former posts), but here are some suggestions.

1. Get law topics on cds and listen to them in your car. You can find cheap ones on ebay.
2. Can you guys meet half-way?
3. Is there any reason why she can't visit you?
4. Train? This little guy is exptremely helpful with my gf and me. And it's cheaper than driving, but takes longer. Also very easy to schedule online.
5. Talk it over with your gf and come to a mutual understanding regarding the expectations of law school. Make sure she understands that when you are together, you might be studying for a good chuck of the time. This was the hardest thing for my gf at first, but it's easily cured with lots of hugs and kisses and "I love you sweethearts."

Anyway, the long distance thing has not been a problem for us. In fact, it probably has made our relationship a bit stronger. Good luck.

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