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Messages - WhiteyEMSR

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You said there were at least as many Wayne State grads as UM grads at Detroit firms. You WERE wrong. You then said that most of the grads at UM and Wayne would "tell you you are an idiot for paying twice as much tuition to get the same job." You ARE wrong here as well, unless you're talking to jackasses, which wouldn't surprise me.

And, shut up with your "representative sample" bull. I said that the top 10-20% do not get paid the same, and as an example I used the fact that the top students (the ones who have the best chance of getting jobs) are even sometimes left unemployed. And, yes, I know MANY people outside of this "representative sample" that do not have jobs. A lot of people are frustrated. And Geoff is ONE person--I'm talking about many. We have transfers from Wayne, UDM, and Ave, and they all left because nobody was getting jobs. I was right at the top of my class, with law review, moot court and a scholarship, and I was worried about not getting a job. I know better than you because I know people at these schools, I know A LOT more people at Detroit law firms than you do, I've been to a TTT, I've transferred to a T1, and I'm not an ignorant 0L. If you're hiring partner said what you say he did, then he's giving false info too.

And why would you "walk around the law firm" to see where people went to school when it's much easier and sufficient to check the website? Are you that stupid? Or is that statement some kind of plug to let us all know that you work for a firm? And even if you did walk around the firm, you'd still find out that you're wrong.

A thousand pardons, I didn't mean to offend you teh Julie Fern.  I mistakenly thought that this was blatant flame.  Seriously, who the hell asks whether or not any of these schools are good?  If someone is at the point where these are their only options, at best their only job prospects after graduating will be in small HAVEYOUBEENINJUREDINANACCIDEN TLAW. Save your money and work as a paralegal (if you MUST work in a legal profession), at least then you won't be mired in a heap of debt that you won't be able to pay off.

Obviously you don't know a thing about the Detroit market.   There are at least as many Wayne State grads at the top Michigan firms as there are Michigan grads, and most of them will tell you that you are an idiot for paying twice as much tuition to get the same job.  The hiring partners I have spoken to always say to go to the best school you can get into (which means pay the money and go to Michigan if you can), but the top 10-20% at any of those schools will be making the same as any Michigan grad.  All three are good schools, especially if you are staying in Michigan.  Wayne State is the best after Michigan, but Michigan State is rising.  UD Mercy is a good school, but it clearly trailing the other two. 

Obviously you don't know anything about the Detroit market. I got callbacks from many Detroit firms and researched all of them to death, but it doesn't take a genius to look through the attorney profiles section of the law firms' websites to to see where the attorneys went to school. There are FAR many more UM grads than Wayne grads. I'll make it easy on you--go to Dykema's website (I'm assuming you know the firm as you have talked to so many hiring partners)--you can search by school.

And NOBODY that knows anything about Michigan law firms or Michigan law schools will call someone an idiot for choosing UM over Wayne. In fact, if you were accepted to both schools, you would be a f-ing moron to choose Wayne.

And, the top 10%-20% of students from "any of those schools" are not making the same as any Michigan grad. I did my first year of law school at "one of those schools," and there are people at the top of the class with law review that don't find jobs through OCI. The top 10%-20% (and beyond) of Michigan grads get Vault jobs. "Any of those schools" send VERY FEW grads to Vault firms.

Sorry to own you so badly, but I hate it when people give false advice on these boards.

I did my first year of law school at UDM. The very top students can get jobs at big firms. I know there were a couple at Shearman, one at Jenner, one or two at Mayer Brown, and a few students get jobs at the local big firms( Dykema, Miller, Honigman, etc.). The firms that come to OCI probably rarely interview anyone outside of the top 20%, and to have even a reasonable chance, especially at a Vault firm, you're going to need to be in the top 10%, perhaps even the top ten people. And, you better have law review. Dean Gordon is doing good things for the school, and the professors are great.

I honestly don't think things are a whole lot better at Wayne. Firms are still going to be really choosey. Maybe they'll dip a bit deeper into the class, but not much.

If you want to do public interest work, then UDM will give you options. I transferred because I wanted to be assured a job at a big firm.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Long-distance relationship during law school
« on: March 02, 2007, 07:57:56 AM »
It's all about how you prioritize your time. Yes, the first year of law school is demanding, but studying is something you can do just about anywhere. If you want it to work, you can make it work. Like I said, I see my girlfriend every week, we like over 3.5 hours away, I have plenty of time to study, and I get good grades.

I'm not sure if these things have been addressed yet (I didn't read all of the former posts), but here are some suggestions.

1. Get law topics on cds and listen to them in your car. You can find cheap ones on ebay.
2. Can you guys meet half-way?
3. Is there any reason why she can't visit you?
4. Train? This little guy is exptremely helpful with my gf and me. And it's cheaper than driving, but takes longer. Also very easy to schedule online.
5. Talk it over with your gf and come to a mutual understanding regarding the expectations of law school. Make sure she understands that when you are together, you might be studying for a good chuck of the time. This was the hardest thing for my gf at first, but it's easily cured with lots of hugs and kisses and "I love you sweethearts."

Anyway, the long distance thing has not been a problem for us. In fact, it probably has made our relationship a bit stronger. Good luck.

Incoming 1Ls / Re: Long-distance relationship during law school
« on: February 28, 2007, 10:21:59 PM »
I go to school in South Bend, Indiana. My gf lives in Detroit. It's about a 3.5 hour drive, and we see each other at least 3 days a week. I drive to Detroit friday night and study saturday while she's at work. We hang out in detroit until Sunday when we drive to South Bend together (she drives, I study in the car). She then takes the train back to Detroit on monday or tuesday (her job is very flexible). It's a lot of driving, but we prefer it to not seeing each other. We lived together for a few years before law school, so we were accustomed to seeing each other every day. I say with a 2.5 hour drive, you'll be fine. Good luck.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions
« on: February 25, 2007, 09:53:17 PM »
"Are law students involved in student government or other ND, non-law student groups?"

Don't think so.

"Are there any camping/kayaking/outdoor sporting opportunities in the area around ND?  Not that I'll expect to have time for it, but a weekend once in a while might be nice."

Nope, not that I know of. Camping in the hood might be fun though. And adventurous.

"How important would it be to have a car?"

I know there are buses that go around the downtown area. Not sure where the closest stop to the school is. Grad housing is right on campus, a quick walk from the law school. If you lived on campus, being without a car would not be a problem. Midwest winters are bitterly cold, but if you lived off campus close enough to the school you could walk.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions
« on: February 25, 2007, 07:43:40 AM »
"What is the social scene like?  If South Bend is kinda lame, where do people go to relax/have fun/let loose on the weekends or slow weeks?"

A lot of people get involved in the school activities such as bowling, soccer, football, basketball. There are a couple of bars that people seem to like. CJ's is known for great hamburgers and good drink specials. The Linebacker is a retro 80s bar that gets packed and is pretty crazy. There are always events and fundraisers going on.

"On a completely different note, how do ND students compare to students at your former law school?  Are they challenging/engaging/inspiring you to be a better law student and future lawyer?"

The students are very much the same as the students at my first law school. This may seem surprising as my first school was a tier 4. The questions are the same, the comments in class are the same, and they work about the same. Although I have noticed more people on the internet at ND during class. Maybe this is because they are so smart they don't need to pay attention, I don't know:)

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions
« on: February 24, 2007, 09:57:27 AM »
"How detached is the law school from the undergrad campus?"

Well, the law school isn't detached at all. It's right on the main campus. You can check out its location on the website (maps of campus).

"Do you know any students who had 1L summer jobs?"

The 1ls just went through this process. I don't know how successful they were in obtaining summer jobs. I'd be surprised if there wasn't something for everyone though. I'll ask around.

"Are football games big social occasions for law students, or is everyone too chained to their library cubicle to go?"

Football is huge with everyone. You put off studying to go to football games. Law students are involved just as much as everyone else.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions
« on: February 24, 2007, 08:36:49 AM »
"I'll be visiting for the Accepted Students Day next week...what are some must see things on campus?"

Well, I'd focus on the law school as that is where you'll be spending most of your time. Keep in mind, construction on the new building begins soon (I think this week), so it's going to be updated quite a bit. The library will be important to you; take a walk through all of the floors.

Also, the main campus library is pretty cool. Check that out. Grad housing, if you'll be staying on campus. Maybe check out the eating halls. If you're into exercise, check out the facilities. They are nice. Check out the Grotto and the church, it's immaculate. Walk around the main building, it's the famous domed one with the huge staircase. Check out the bookstore, it's huge and has a Starbuck's cafe, a clothing store, and a Barnes and Noble type bookstore.

Some students like to head over to the bar in the Morris Inn (right next to the law school) to get beer or appetizers or watch various games.

"How helpful are professors and how accessible are they?"

Professors are very approachable and very accessible. They all are available after class and keep relatively strict office hours. Some professors can be intimidating for 1Ls. Some are absolutely laid back.

Choosing the Right Law School / Re: Notre Dame 2L Taking Questions
« on: February 24, 2007, 05:51:55 AM »
"Is there a competitive atmosphere at all (obviously beyond everyone trying to do well)?"

Well, of course it's competitive. It's law school. I don't think anymore than anywhere else though. I didn't do my first year there, so I might not have a full feel for this. I don't hear people bragging about their grades or anything.

"How do you like South Bend?"

South Bend isn't the best college town. There are a couple of popular bars and the law school has lots of events (various sports, bowling, get togethers). The city does have plans for an "Ann Arbor" like setting in the future, but I don't know when this big project will be undertaken. There are a bunch of houses in a ghetto neighborhood a block from the school that are all condemned and boarded, and I think there are plans for strip malls and other cool stuff. An atty from the law firm handling the development came in and talked in my Real Estate class, but I skipped that day.

Lots of South Bend is kind of bad, but the downtown area is all right. There are some nice restaurants and the like, and there are some good walking spots along the river.

"Any good looking female students?  Grin   Wait, better not ask that at Notre Dame  Wink"

Unfortunately, there are not a lot, but there are a few. It must depend on the class. If I were you, I would either turn gay or check out the undergrads.

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