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Messages - WhiteyEMSR

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Law Firms / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 07:23:30 PM »
Wow, I'm really obsessed with this topic. Anyway, I didn't realize that nalp let's you search by salary.

To clarify so that nobody is getting inaccurate information, according to nalp, an organization that all BigLaw firms subscribe to, there are 5 firms that pay over 145,000 starting out before bonuses. These firms all pay 150,000 and one pays 155 (but it's a firm based out of London, Herbert Smith) so I'm not counting that.

So, my point is this, responding to the poster that says a top 14 school guarantees a job paying 170-190, all I can say is "nope," at least not without some extravagant bonus plan that I have not been made privy to.

Law Firms / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 05:56:07 PM »
LegalLatin, what year/where are you in law school? Did you get your Jones Day job through OCI? Were you paid as a summer associate? I ask because a buddy of mine (just accepted a JD offer after her summer) says that no JD office starts at 155,000 before bonuses. For that matter, I interviewed with a lot of big firms (2nd in my class interviewing at Notre Dame), and none of them paid more than 145000 before bonuses. Also, 138,000? What firm starts at 138,000? Are you sure you're getting accurate information?

Were you hired in as a lateral after working for a while or something? Are you an associate? Anything you could tell me about the firm would be of great help (not sure how much things vary from office to office).
Starting salary info on Jones Day:

Law Firms / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 05:50:10 PM »
LegalLatin, have starting salaries at JD changed? According to their website, the most they pay (before bonuses) is 145,000 and that is in NY. Chicago (where I will be) and San Francisco (where I think you said you are) are said to start out at 135,000. For my summer, I know I get the equivalent to an associate's salary; last year they said this was 135000, but they have not yet told us what the summer associates this summer will be paid. If things have changed, then yipeee!

Also, I've heard mixed things about the bonus structure at Jones Day. Is it true that bonuses are rare and inconsistent? I know they like to keep compensation type issues hush hush, but what's the deal? What are the annual salary increases like? Do they make up for the lack of bonuses?


Law Firms / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 12:49:52 PM »
Here's my take.  I think that you should transfer up at the end of your 1L year.  You will have had a good experience at Hofstra and not paid a dime and that is awesome.  However, if you want to do M&A and securities work you need to get into BigLaw. To do that you would be doing yourself a major disservice in being at Hofstra. 

Also, be aware that there are a handful of people who scored around 170 at my mid-T1 lawschool.  I know for sure that some of them are near the 50% percentile in their class.  So work real hard this year and make the transfer happen...don't slack.

Transfer to any T-14 and you'll be guaranteed a job, with the work you want, paying you a first-year total package between 170-190K. The first year at the firm will make up the difference in tuition you'll be facing by transferring. But again, realize that if you want to transfer out of Hofstra to a T-14 you'll need to be at least in the top 10% and there's people with LSAT scores and undergrad GPA's much lower than your that are just now finally getting their academics in gear.

I disagree with a couple of things in this post. First, even people at T-14 jobs are not guaranteed a BigLaw job paying "first year total packages btwn 170-190." I know people at Georgetown and Michigan who were at the middle of their classes, went through OCI and did not land jobs. Even at top schools, competition for BigLaw jobs exists. As you probably know, big law firms hire almost exclusively from OCI, so if you don't get a job thorugh this process, you're out of luck, at least for the big firms. 

Second, the most any BigLaw firm starts their associates out at is 145,000 and even these are scarce outside of NY. I found one firm in Chicago that pays 145 starting. There are quite a few that start at 135. Even with bonuses, there are very few firms that would give a first year associate a total package of 190,000 and if this firm did exist, you would probably be billing 3,000 hours + a year.

Law Firms / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 07, 2006, 07:40:40 PM »
Have you looked to see what firms interview at Hofstra, and more importantly what firms hire largely out of Hofstra? would be a resource, probably secondary though to your CSO. I imagine that many of the top firms do interview at Hofstra, but you must be much higher in you class to get a postion. My situation is a bit different as I transferred from a 4th tier to a tier 1. But I was told by the firms I interviewed with that the school one goes to is of utmost importance. Consequently, very few people at the 4th tier I transferred from have secured summer jobs, not even the top students, law reviewers, moot courters, etc. It sucks, but that's the nature of the game.

LegalLatin, what Jones Day office are you at? I just accepted an offer for a summer postition from their Chicago office. Any insight?

Transferring / Re: Yet ANOTHER possible transfer questions
« on: November 03, 2006, 01:41:51 PM »
Hey, just wanted to add my two cents. I was in exactly the same position as you. 4th tier in Michigan, 2nd in my class, graded onto law review and made the moot court team. I was torn regarding whether to transfer or not, you know, the whole big fish in a small pond v. small fish in a big pond thing. I was accetped at Notre Dame and was worried how I would be viewed as a transfer student.

I am SO happy I made the move. I got callbacks from all the big Michigan firms that I interviewed with and turned them all down for an offer with a huge firm's Chicago office. I never would have had the chance to interview with most of the firms I interviewed with at ND if I had stayed at the tier 4. Consequently and unfortunately, my friends who decided not to transfer are not getting offers, and these are very smart people. Most of the transfers to ND (I think there were 14 or 15 have had a lot of luck at ND).

General Board / Re: Feeling like quitting
« on: November 01, 2006, 05:44:15 PM »
Hey buddy, I know just how you feel. I did my first year at a tier 4 and went through exactly the same feelings that you are now having. At one point I was looking for just about any reason I could to drop out. I looked into other grad programs and tried to convince everyone, mostly myself, that law school was not for me. I was sick of the work and especially sick of being confused as hell.

However, I stuck with it despite my negative feelings. I realized that everything that I was complaining about I knew before I even began my first year. I knew it would be tough, I knew my social life would suffer, and I knew the job market for a graduate of a tier 4 school in my area.

Anyway, to make a long story short, I ended up 2nd in my class and tranferred to a tier 1 school. My options would have been okay if I had stayed at the tier 4, but I figured I deserved the step up. My advice to you would be to not give up easily because it can pay off. At least finish up the semester and see how you end up. Like I said, I thought that I was more miserable/confused than everyone around me, but I ended up doing well after midterms and stuck it out.

Detroit Mercy / Re: UDM fall 2006???
« on: July 07, 2006, 11:01:00 AM »

Hi Ang,

What is written below is basically for the benefit of anyone else interested in reading. I left you a more detailed reponse in your inbox of the email address you sent to me.

1. OCIs are typically for the top 10-25%. If I said 15% I made a mistake. It's hard to give you a GPA that would put you in that range. I'm not sure if you have TWEN access as part of the SSP, but if you do , look under the Student Services and Registrar tab under class ranks. For the 2005 first year class, the top 25% had 3.1 and above and the top 10% had about 3.4 and above. This is out of 124 day students. This year there was more than that, and I'm guessing your year will have even more than this year. Is it hard? Well, 112 students out of 124 are below 3.4 and about 100 under the 3.1. Keep in mind, the OCIs are for the top firms. These firms want top students and pay to get the top students. This doesn't mean that all other students don't get jobs are interviews. Just not interviews with the top law firms during OCI. I think OCIs are limited, though, to the top firms. So, be in the top 25% of the class if you want to take part in OCI.

2. UDM won't let the professors give any grades they want. To make it competitive, the curve is set anywhere from 2.5-2.8 which means that the average has to be at this number. It sucks. UDMs is much lower than other schools. Nobody will give you a straight answer to why this is. Maybe because they let so many people in, maybe because they want to week out the bottom, I don't know. A 3.0 might put you in the top 25%.

This means there are a lot of grades around the middle and few at the very top and very bottom.

3. Shorecrest Inn really isn't that bad of a walk, even in the winter. You definitely shouldn't stress out too much in terms of safety. You will see bums, but they don't usually bother anyone. I have never heard of any incidents with bums. The only crime I heard of all semester was a kid who had his car broken into after he left it in a parking lot of a restaurant all night. I didn't mapquest Shorecrest, but I would say it is about a 10 minute walk if you walk quickly. It is located east of the school on Jefferson. Get a spot now, because it will fill up quickly. The one next to the school is called Bricktown Parking. To get a spot there, go across the street to Opus One, a restaurant, and pay the office upstairs. Go to the admissions office and they will give you a list of all the potential parking and costs.

4. I have not taken Criminal Law yet. Is the class you are taking going towards your credits? I am assuming not, and that it is more like a trial course? Are you definitely accepted? I know the summer program has special rules, but I can't remember what they are. Just curious. Try to get a feel as to what the professor wants. Some professors who go deep into analysis and give you tons of examples in class probably want a lot of argument and analysis. So, instead of doing a simple IRAC, argue different outcomes based on slight variances but always stick to the facts.

Hope this helps.



Detroit Mercy / Re: UDM fall 2006???
« on: July 05, 2006, 01:59:22 PM »
Hello. I was a poster on the board referenced above. I just finished my 1st year at UDM. I want to add a few things after reading the previous posts. Yes, the economy in Michigan is *&^% right now, and it is a struggle for graduating law students to find jobs. Also, UDM is not nationally recognized and has  a low ranking. I know many students from other schools as well as some recent graduates. Everyone from any law school is Michigan, with the excetion of UM (you could probably sleep through classes your first year and still get offers), is struggling right now. There is not a big enough demand for attorneys for employers to hire everyone in each graduating class.

For those attending UDM in the fall, you were proably not told that on-campus interviewing that takes place in the fall for 2ls and 3ls (some 1ls, but very few will be hired) are limited to the top 10-25% of the class. All of the top firms (the ones that start their interns off at 1800-2400$ a week) will probaly make it a game for the top 10 people (In my class, that would be about 5%). Dykema, who probably wined and dined you at orientation, is one of these firms. They pay 1800$ a week to students, but will proably only take 1 or 2 from UDM out of a total of 6 or 7. This is actually excellent for a school like UDM, considering they interview from Harvard, Michigan, Wayne, I forget the rest (check out Keep in mind that when I say top 10-25%, these are the people who get interviewed for very few spots. Nobody is guaranteed a job. Also, this is not just UDM. The only campus in Michigan that does not allow employers to pre-screen applicants is UM.

Of course, just because you don't get an interview on campus doesn't mean you won't find a job. The jobs above are the top firms in MI who have the resources to send interviewers to many different schools. Many people find jobs on their own or with assistance from the career services office. Of course, most "during school" or summer jobs are not paid, and with all the debt I'm in, I need to be paid!

For those with questions about transferring, it been trying on my patience. My last exam was on 5/5 and grades came out at the late part of the middle of June. Many school have a 7/1 deadline. Class rankings are still not published, even though you can look at the breakdown of everyone's grades and pretty much figure out your ranking on your own. Many transfer schools require rankings. UM is one of the schools I am applying to as a transfer, and their deadline is July 15th and they require the rankings to complete my file. It is very frustrating. Also, my scholarship letter, a mere 25%, has an acceptance deadline of 7/7. I will not have heard from any of my transfer school by then. Again, very frustrating.

I think I talked about housing on topic quoted above, and I agree with what is said on this board. I live in Troy, a little north of Royal Oak. It is quiet, safe and it is possible to find reasonable cheap places.

I do not agree that there is nothing to do in Detroit! Holy *&^%! Just name what you want to do, and you can do it. Anyone who wants advice on great bars to go to in downtown Detroit or any of the suburbs in Oakland county, PM me, and I'll show you around myself!

Anyway, I love UDM, and if they offer me enough money to stay, I probably will. IT looks like I will make law review and I already made moot court. Keep in mind that it is a hustle to do well. The curve is set at 2.5-2.7 in many classes, so there are very few As. Many people do much worse than they expected to do. Being at the bottom or even the middle of the class at UDM is not a good place to be; yet I am convinced this is the case at any law school in MI with one exception.

Parking at UDM is reserved for the 2 and 3 year students. Evening students also. I parked directly west of the school in Bricktown Parking. It is across the strret from Opus One, a fancy establishment that offers 1/2 off to students and great appetizers. It is also next to The Buzz bar, a great new place with a rooftop bar that is a great place to party. It is 85$ but right next to the school. Shorecrest Inn is also a good place. It is 35$ but requires about a 5-10 minute walk (MI winters suck).

Well, PM me if you have any questions and I'll give you my email address. I would be happy to tell you about the classes you are taking, professors, study aids, anything you need. Later. EMSR

General Board / Re: Torts- True or False
« on: December 01, 2005, 09:11:56 PM »
I've seen the Hand formula applied in both the duty and breach elements. Typically it is used in the breach analysis to decide if the party used reasonable care. My prof used an example of when it is used in the duty analysis. It went something like this. P worked on a construction site. He was shocked by a current from a power line that ran through a truck that was touching the line. Apparently the power company has a method where it sends three "test" currents to determine if the line is down or simply being interferred with. P was shocked as a result of these test currents. The current used the hand formula to decide not to impose a duty on the power company; to do so would be too great of a burden (very expensive to change current system) compared with the probablity x loss.

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