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Messages - WhiteyEMSR

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31
Current Law Students / BigLaw Suit Requirement?
« on: November 18, 2006, 02:48:23 PM »
Big firms generally require suit and tie dress every day. Do they have to be dark suits? Are my grey, tan and brown suits now useless? What's the norm here? Thanks.

32
Job Search / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 16, 2006, 08:44:41 PM »
Doesn't matter that you've never heard of anyone billing 3,000 hours. It happens. Google "Wachtell" and "3000 hours." You'll get lots of hits. Many reputable articles.

33
Job Search / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 16, 2006, 06:07:53 PM »
Here's my take.  I think that you should transfer up at the end of your 1L year.  You will have had a good experience at Hofstra and not paid a dime and that is awesome.  However, if you want to do M&A and securities work you need to get into BigLaw. To do that you would be doing yourself a major disservice in being at Hofstra. 

Also, be aware that there are a handful of people who scored around 170 at my mid-T1 lawschool.  I know for sure that some of them are near the 50% percentile in their class.  So work real hard this year and make the transfer happen...don't slack.

Transfer to any T-14 and you'll be guaranteed a job, with the work you want, paying you a first-year total package between 170-190K. The first year at the firm will make up the difference in tuition you'll be facing by transferring. But again, realize that if you want to transfer out of Hofstra to a T-14 you'll need to be at least in the top 10% and there's people with LSAT scores and undergrad GPA's much lower than your that are just now finally getting their academics in gear.


I disagree with a couple of things in this post. First, even people at T-14 jobs are not guaranteed a BigLaw job paying "first year total packages btwn 170-190." I know people at Georgetown and Michigan who were at the middle of their classes, went through OCI and did not land jobs. Even at top schools, competition for BigLaw jobs exists. As you probably know, big law firms hire almost exclusively from OCI, so if you don't get a job thorugh this process, you're out of luck, at least for the big firms. 

Second, the most any BigLaw firm starts their associates out at is 145,000 and even these are scarce outside of NY. I found one firm in Chicago that pays 145 starting. There are quite a few that start at 135. Even with bonuses, there are very few firms that would give a first year associate a total package of 190,000 and if this firm did exist, you would probably be billing 3,000 hours + a year.

this is a very misleading post.

1) biglaw does most, but NOT ALL of its hiring through oci. write-ins, minority job fairs, etc. are all effective ways of getting a biglaw job.

2) no one, i repeat, NO ONE bills 3,000+ hrs a year. not even in nyc.

3) yes, it happens that people at top schools don't land jobs through oci. that happens exceptionally infrequently and they are usually able to secure well-paying positions later in the year.

4) market salaries are well over $100k in just about any major market. top 10 law students, unless they are socially retarded, usually have no trouble getting these jobs, regardless of class rank. many of my friends who made all "Passes" in their first year are now at top 20 firms in SF, NYC, DC, and LA.


1. Like I said, big firms hire almost exclusively through OCI. Through my experience (somewhat limited, I suppose) it is very unlikely for someone to get a well paying (and by well paying I mean 100,000+) job not through OCI.

2. You say "nobody bills 3,000 hours a year." Are you kidding me? This is billing less than 60 hours a week. Billing 60 hours a week is billing approx 8.5 hours a day (assuming you work weekends). This is very possible. Some lawyers out in 12 hours a day. With 12 hour work days you can surely bill 8.5 hours a day. Of course this means no life, almost whatsoever, but it also means mucho dinero. To say nobody bills 3,000 a year is a ridiculous over-generalization. Ask any associate at any big firm. I know people who have billed this many hours. They are not happy people. I even know of small firms where associates bill over 3000 hours (Baker Daniels in Indy, for example). Some firms have huge incentive programs for billing this many hours. Bonus packages for billing 2500 hours are VERY common. What makes you think 500 hours more (approx 9.5 billable more a week) is out of the question.

3. I was speaking more to BigLaw. It is likely that you will get something through OCI, but I was refuting the statement that "T14 people are guaranteed BigLaw jobs paying 170-190." This is not true. This is not true because base salaries don't start out this high. Check Nalp. Seach by salary. There is one firm listed that pays 155,000, a handful that pay 150,000.

4. Again, I'm not talking about "top ten law students." Of course the top ten law students can get BigLaw jobs. Again, I was responding to the guy who said a T14 is guaranteed a BigLaw job regardless of class rank. There are quite a few students, including myself, that secured jobs at Vault top 20 firms. We were all top of our class. All of us. The BigLaw firms (Sidley Austin, Kirkland & Ellis, Sheaman & Sterling, Jones Day, Jenner Block, etc, etc,) only took the top students. These firms would never take students from the bottom of the class. Check out these firms' websites. Even the associates from HYS, etc have honors, journal experience, etc.

BTW, good luck in England. I have a lot of family there; I envy you. Bring your wellies and your brolly though;)

34
Transferring / Re: Ave Maria
« on: November 14, 2006, 05:43:34 PM »
My roommate was told the same thing about tier two for the last two years. I don't think it's going to happen. New schools can't move up in the rankings this fast due to criteria that USNWR use for their ranking system. Plus, there are virtually no extablished alumni of the school, the faculty is very distrusting of the dean and Tom M., and the possible move to Florida will change the school's structure and the accreditation may be lost. When faculty attempt to vote a dean out of a law school, USNWR is not going to bump a school above other well established schools in the state.

Focus on where 2ls are getting summer jobs. This is what matters, especially if you want to work at a law firm. Law firmss hire almost exclusively through their OCI programs. Ask them in the hallways at school. Also ask professors what they think.

35
Transferring / Re: Ave Maria
« on: November 14, 2006, 05:31:40 PM »
My roommate trasferred from Ave this year. He was also concerned about the school, especially the possible move to florida and the faculty's dislike for the dean. You can't do much until you have final grades for your first year. You can look into what schools you might be interested in. Also, get in good with some professors so you can get recommendations from them. Work hard to get good grades. My roommate had very good grades, but there is another Ave student who was under a 3.5, I think. We're now at Notre Dame.

Are second year students getting offers for summer employment? What firms does Ave bring to campus. My roommate said this year only Butzel Long intreviewed there. Also, Butzel is the only firm listed on nalp for Ave. You should ask 2Ls if they are gettin work for this summer. My roommate's friends, for the most part, are not, but of course he doesn't know everyone.

36
Transferring / Re: Yet ANOTHER possible transfer questions
« on: November 14, 2006, 05:26:56 PM »
Detroit Mercy

37
Job Search / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 05:23:30 PM »
Wow, I'm really obsessed with this topic. Anyway, I didn't realize that nalp let's you search by salary. http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_advanced.asp

To clarify so that nobody is getting inaccurate information, according to nalp, an organization that all BigLaw firms subscribe to, there are 5 firms that pay over 145,000 starting out before bonuses. These firms all pay 150,000 and one pays 155 (but it's a firm based out of London, Herbert Smith) so I'm not counting that.

So, my point is this, responding to the poster that says a top 14 school guarantees a job paying 170-190, all I can say is "nope," at least not without some extravagant bonus plan that I have not been made privy to.

38
Job Search / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 03:56:07 PM »
LegalLatin, what year/where are you in law school? Did you get your Jones Day job through OCI? Were you paid as a summer associate? I ask because a buddy of mine (just accepted a JD offer after her summer) says that no JD office starts at 155,000 before bonuses. For that matter, I interviewed with a lot of big firms (2nd in my class interviewing at Notre Dame), and none of them paid more than 145000 before bonuses. Also, 138,000? What firm starts at 138,000? Are you sure you're getting accurate information?

Were you hired in as a lateral after working for a while or something? Are you an associate? Anything you could tell me about the firm would be of great help (not sure how much things vary from office to office).
Starting salary info on Jones Day:
http://www.nalpdirectory.com/dledir_search_advanced.asp
http://www.jonesday.com/careers/usa/students/summer/compensation/



39
Job Search / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 03:50:10 PM »
LegalLatin, have starting salaries at JD changed? According to their website, the most they pay (before bonuses) is 145,000 and that is in NY. Chicago (where I will be) and San Francisco (where I think you said you are) are said to start out at 135,000. For my summer, I know I get the equivalent to an associate's salary; last year they said this was 135000, but they have not yet told us what the summer associates this summer will be paid. If things have changed, then yipeee!

Also, I've heard mixed things about the bonus structure at Jones Day. Is it true that bonuses are rare and inconsistent? I know they like to keep compensation type issues hush hush, but what's the deal? What are the annual salary increases like? Do they make up for the lack of bonuses?

Thanks

40
Job Search / Re: How important is the name really?
« on: November 13, 2006, 10:49:52 AM »
Here's my take.  I think that you should transfer up at the end of your 1L year.  You will have had a good experience at Hofstra and not paid a dime and that is awesome.  However, if you want to do M&A and securities work you need to get into BigLaw. To do that you would be doing yourself a major disservice in being at Hofstra. 

Also, be aware that there are a handful of people who scored around 170 at my mid-T1 lawschool.  I know for sure that some of them are near the 50% percentile in their class.  So work real hard this year and make the transfer happen...don't slack.

Transfer to any T-14 and you'll be guaranteed a job, with the work you want, paying you a first-year total package between 170-190K. The first year at the firm will make up the difference in tuition you'll be facing by transferring. But again, realize that if you want to transfer out of Hofstra to a T-14 you'll need to be at least in the top 10% and there's people with LSAT scores and undergrad GPA's much lower than your that are just now finally getting their academics in gear.


I disagree with a couple of things in this post. First, even people at T-14 jobs are not guaranteed a BigLaw job paying "first year total packages btwn 170-190." I know people at Georgetown and Michigan who were at the middle of their classes, went through OCI and did not land jobs. Even at top schools, competition for BigLaw jobs exists. As you probably know, big law firms hire almost exclusively from OCI, so if you don't get a job thorugh this process, you're out of luck, at least for the big firms. 

Second, the most any BigLaw firm starts their associates out at is 145,000 and even these are scarce outside of NY. I found one firm in Chicago that pays 145 starting. There are quite a few that start at 135. Even with bonuses, there are very few firms that would give a first year associate a total package of 190,000 and if this firm did exist, you would probably be billing 3,000 hours + a year.

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